Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-20 10:07 AM - Post#304627
Well, with social distancing limiting our options primarily to our homes, our computers, and to isolated work conditons, I thought I would start this thread even though it is probably premature. I also acknowledge that next year’s basketball season may be in jeopardy.
Projected roster:
Wings:
Jordan Dingle
Jelanie Williams
Jonah Charles
Lucas Monroe
Bryce Washington
Griffin Ryan
Alex Imegwu
TJ Berger
Clark Slajchert
Andrew Laczkowski
Wing/Forwards:
Eddie Scott
Max Martz
Forwards/Centers:
Jarrod Simmons
MLL
Michael Wang
Mark Jackson
Of course, everything will change in the post AJ Brodeur era. You can’t replace a transcendent player such as AJ, and the offense will need to be redesigned to accommodate Simmons, MLL, and Jackson at the 5. I can’t imagine a point center next year. If Wang is healthy, I would expect to see two of Simmons, MLL, Jackson, Wang, Scott, and Martz at the 4/5 positions.
If Jelani is healthy, I assume he, Jordan, and possibly Monroe will share running the offense. Beyond that, I would expect Washington to get major minutes along with Charles (based on the preseason hype of last season). Hopefully Imegwu, Ryan, or some of the freshmen will also be ready for prime time.
The defense will really be challenged without AJ and Devon. I hope that MLL will be ready to make an impact defending around the basket.
Overall, my expectations are very low. At the same time, it will be interesting to see which players assume a major role. This will probably be SD’s most challenging year to date at Penn.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 11:10 AM - Post#304636
In response to Condor
It should be bumpy, but I cannot see going with anyone in the middle other than MLL---our future success depends on his development. We have seen Simmons' ceiling and it is not high enough to win. Think the 1976-7 team that was loaded with athletic talent up and down the roster but lost to Princeton because they simply made too many mistakes. I can see this team playing like that--but look where that team was in the following 2 years. The only returning non-freshman who I expect to play major minutes is Eddie, who can run with these guys. And that is what they will have to do. Create havoc on defense---with presses, overplays and blocked shots, get out and run. With the graduation losses of Harvard and Yale, I expect that Penn will probably be either the most athletic team in the League or right up there with Harvard, and certainly the youngest. So let's do what they do best. I don't see MLL as anything but a low post center, so he has to be working with a big man coach this summer and learn some scoring moves in the paint. Everyone else needs to work on their three point shooting. It will be a high variable team, but it has the potential to be very good within 2 years.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 12:49 PM - Post#304641
In response to palestra38
It should be bumpy, but I cannot see going with anyone in the middle other than MLL---our future success depends on his development. We have seen Simmons' ceiling and it is not high enough to win. Think the 1976-7 team that was loaded with athletic talent up and down the roster but lost to Princeton because they simply made too many mistakes. I can see this team playing like that--but look where that team was in the following 2 years. The only returning non-freshman who I expect to play major minutes is Eddie, who can run with these guys. And that is what they will have to do. Create havoc on defense---with presses, overplays and blocked shots, get out and run. With the graduation losses of Harvard and Yale, I expect that Penn will probably be either the most athletic team in the League or right up there with Harvard, and certainly the youngest. So let's do what they do best. I don't see MLL as anything but a low post center, so he has to be working with a big man coach this summer and learn some scoring moves in the paint. Everyone else needs to work on their three point shooting. It will be a high variable team, but it has the potential to be very good within 2 years.
Wang is the X factor. From what we saw of him in his freshman year, in addition to his range as a shooter, he's actually a pretty deft passer. I would expect him to play at the high post fairly often and run the offense through him. As for MLL, he needs to get stronger if he's going to play low post minutes. He does seem to have the shot-blocker's mentality, which I think is a positive. With the graduation of players like Lewis and Aririguzoh, there aren't going to be a lot of low post bruisers left in the league. Atkinson is more of a finesse player, and guys like Choh and Nweke are bruisers, but not that tall.
I do like the idea of ratcheting up the pressure defense, though. The question is whether or not we have the depth to pull it off successfully. It's never seemed apparent to me that SD has that defensive mindset, though.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 03-15-20 12:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 01:57 PM - Post#304644
In response to weinhauers_ghost
I still want to see Simmons get a chance to play 20 minutes a game in an offense that is not designed around AJ’s skillset before we decide he has hit his ceiling. I think he and MLL will split time at the 5. I hope we see more from both.
I agree with WG that Wang creates some options, but wouldn’t he be more likely to play the 4?
P38, if none of Williams, Washington, Simmons, and Wang get significant minutes, we will have an extremely thin bench unless at least two of the three freshmen are ready to play out of the gate.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 02:01 PM - Post#304646
In response to Condor
I hope we will get PT from one of Wang, Williams or Washington. I will be pleasantly surprised if we get that....
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 02:12 PM - Post#304648
In response to Condor
I could see playing Wang at the 4, but then that means a commitment to playing two bigs. That was often the case when AJ and Rothschild played together, but we rarely saw that alignment this past season. I'd say it would depend on Wang's health and mobility.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Next year
03-15-20 10:43 PM - Post#304671
In response to palestra38
Not sure we have the horses to play pressure defense. We actually lose almost all the guys who get steals — we had 6 guys getting more than one steal per 40 minutes this year, and four of them graduate. That just leaves Monroe and Washington as guys who produce much in terms of turnovers.
My guess is that Donahue doesn’t want to change. He made DNH, AJ, and Max R into the type of high post passer he wanted, so I assume he finds it somewhere. Wang seems the most obvious candidate to step in. If not, I am curious to see if he would move to something a little more point forward-like. I wonder if you could see Martz or Monroe playing some kind of smaller high post.
Just a guess as to what Donahue will want to do, though. As I suggested quite a bit this year, I would have liked to have seen a different offense without the high post when AJ was off the floor this year. So I’d be fine with a more Dingle oriented offense.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-16-20 08:39 AM - Post#304678
In response to SomeGuy
I don't think the steals numbers are particularly meaningful to deeming a pressure defense possible. We have great strength, speed and athleticism among this year's freshmen, the most highly recruited of whom didn't even play. Add Eddie and the incoming freshmen and we are a totally different team than this year. We should have numbers to play up close on opposing guards and give them trouble.
I am expecting a less than even transition, but in the long run, it is always better to devise a game plan that fits your players rather than fit your players into a pre-set game plan.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Next year
03-16-20 09:33 AM - Post#304685
In response to palestra38
I agree. While steals are a desirable outcome, I've always felt that pressure defense is best if your goal is to speed up the opposition and force them to make mistakes, and cause them to burn shot clock time before getting into their offense.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-16-20 10:57 AM - Post#304693
In response to weinhauers_ghost
That's a good list of defensive goals. I'd add to that forcing the opposing team to take, what is for them, a low-percentage shot.
Also, let's not forget that Fran Dunphy's greatest Penn teams (excepting when Ibby Jaaber was playing), routinely led the conference in all key defensive measures except steals (for which they were usually last). This was by design.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-16-20 11:05 AM - Post#304695
In response to Silver Maple
when I think of changing systems, I think back to Tony hicks who was penn's best (albeit flawed) player. Donahue didn't think he fit and basically told him to pound sand.
I think Steve has a system based on data that says this is the best way to play and he's not going to deviate too much from that. I don't have too much of a problem with this.
other things, sure.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-16-20 11:10 AM - Post#304696
In response to Jeff2sf
Except Tony Hicks was a senior on a team Donahue inherited. These are all his recruits. It's not the same thing. They are freshmen and sophomores and if their skill sets lay in playing a different style (primarily on defense), I think that's what they have to do. I don't think anything will change in terms of shooting the 3. We had 2 freshmen this year who shot a lot of 3s and we have a couple of shooters in the incoming class as well. But getting defensive pressure so we get out on the break gives us a possibility of getting easy 2s in addition to the 3s and somewhat reduces the need to play half court offense as much when we may be lacking at the point.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-16-20 11:32 AM - Post#304700
In response to palestra38
Right now, it's clear to me that Donahue has been struggling to recruit enough players who can play his system well enough to win the conference. I'm hooping that this year's crop of freshmen is a sign of things to come and not an anomaly. If we get another dry recruiting class or two, then somebody's going to have to ask the key question: is this the coach's fault, or are there systemic factors that are creating this situation? I can't help but wonder if financial aid disparities aren't at least part of the problem here.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8313
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-16-20 11:44 AM - Post#304701
In response to Jeff2sf
I think Steve has a system based on data that says this is the best way to play and he's not going to deviate too much from that. I don't have too much of a problem with this.
I hope you are wrong about this. I have always felt that coaches always need to adapt to the talent they have. After seeing him, I am pretty sure they recruited MLL for his low post/rim defense than his potential as a point center. I really think Penn's stable of big guards will be the focus of the offense for a while. Wang is the X-factor.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-16-20 12:45 PM - Post#304706
In response to Streamers
Could be both are true. MLL may be envisioned as the rim protector in the middle on defense, but not the point center in Steve’s offense. Also, while Steve has clearly had a spot that DNH, AJ, and Max R played In the high post, it wasn’t necessarily a feature of his Cornell offense as I remember it. So it is theoretically possible that it isn’t an absolute feature.
On the pressure defense, I think some of the freshmen are built for that (Monroe and MLL) and some are not (Dingle and Martz). They may develop into something different as we go. Agree with P38’s point that pressure defense may be better for the offense though.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: steals
03-16-20 06:34 PM - Post#304719
In response to SomeGuy
In 2019 Penn ranked 101 in steals, playing within Steve Systems.
I ask a different question. How can Steve make his system better using more athletic players?
That said, a starting lineup of Martz, Dingle, MLL, Wang and Monroe would have no exceptionally quick players. We have seen a jumper in Scott, and probably MLL. Dingle is strong. The only guy I can think of who was quick enough to make a difference was Devon. He did lead the team in steals a year ago, but was just ahead of Silpe and Max.
I would rather talk about players with skills not athleticism.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: steals
03-16-20 07:00 PM - Post#304720
In response to UPIA1968
In the early part of the season, we saw Dingle get by his defender quite often. Combination of quickness plus strength in finishing.
Not as quick as Goodman, but then again that's a pretty high bar.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-16-20 07:14 PM - Post#304721
In response to UPIA1968
It’s time for my fearless projections for next year based on three factors, 2020 finish, losses to graduation and gains from recruiting (and returning from injury). I used a simple ordinal ranking for each and then combined the ranking with equal weight. It’s just a means to get some ideas. I’m sure the Mike James will do a waaaaay better job as usual.
Here are the conclusions.
Surprise contender: Dartmouth has small losses in a year when most everybody else loses a lot. They also have a very good recruit.
Biggest regression: Brown. Ordinary results for whole of 2020 with no improvement in talent next year. They overachieved in the league this year.
Second biggest regression: Harvard – Big losses even without Aiken and Townes. No super recruits coming in. Unless the younger players step up they will have difficulty making the tournament. We will see how good a developer Amaker is.
Misses Tournament: Princeton – A significant loss with nothing spectacular coming in. Remember, they finished behind Penn in KenPom ranking this year.
Wins league: Yale in a close finish in a much weaker league. They lose a lot with no studs coming in but ranked way ahead of everyone else this year.
Treads water: Cornel and Columbia
Highest variance: Penn: Biggest losses but biggest gains, IF Wang plays well. With good health will make tournament and could contend in a weakened league. Remember that this year’s team had two great players but no depth. They return the best freshmen class and have the possibility of contributions from three significant injured players. This year will be a big test of Steve’s ability to mold a team.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: steals
03-16-20 07:15 PM - Post#304722
In response to UPIA1968
In 2019 Penn ranked 101 in steals, playing within Steve Systems.
I ask a different question. How can Steve make his system better using more athletic players?
That said, a starting lineup of Martz, Dingle, MLL, Wang and Monroe would have no exceptionally quick players. We have seen a jumper in Scott, and probably MLL. Dingle is strong. The only guy I can think of who was quick enough to make a difference was Devon. He did lead the team in steals a year ago, but was just ahead of Silpe and Max.
I would rather talk about players with skills not athleticism.
When you have players who are skilled but lack athleticism, you will often get beaten by teams whose players have both skills and athleticism. Why can we not recruit enough players with both attributes?
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welcometothejungle
Masters Student
Posts: 788
Age: 27
Reg: 07-31-19
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Next year
03-16-20 08:24 PM - Post#304727
In response to UPIA1968
Second biggest regression: Harvard – Big losses even without Aiken and Townes. No super recruits coming in. Unless the younger players step up they will have difficulty making the tournament. We will see how good a developer Amaker is.
Harvard is bringing in 6-9 center Justice Ajogbor, who's ranked #64 by 247 Sports and #173 overall in their composite rankings, with offers from Auburn, Maryland, and UConn among SEC and ACC schools. Haven't seen him play so I don't know if he's a "super recruit" but I am pretty sure he's the highest rated incoming freshman in the league
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-16-20 09:40 PM - Post#304728
In response to welcometothejungle
Second biggest regression: Harvard – Big losses even without Aiken and Townes. No super recruits coming in. Unless the younger players step up they will have difficulty making the tournament. We will see how good a developer Amaker is
Yeah, I think Harvard’s going to struggle defensively having lost its best perimeter defender and its two best rim protectors. Justice could be the answer for rim protection, but won’t be Lewis-like help on the offensive end and could be a tree in the paint. That might also hurt a Harvard offense that includes a couple bulldozing wings that would benefit from more openness inside.
The thing I struggle with, though, is that Harvard didn’t exactly get consistent offensive production out of any of the four seniors that played regular minutes. Lewis, Baker, Juzang and Bassey all had their games/moments, but if I were picking the top five players off this year’s team that I’d want to keep, I think only Lewis would definitely be in, and Bassey might be. Lots of talent in the Kirkwood, Ledlum, Tretout (he’s a sneaky “leap†guy next year), Rio, Djuricic and Forbes group. Not sure it’s going to be easy to get time in a crowded backcourt, but Evan Nelson is going to come in with a lot more poise than a normal freshman. Hemmings has been injured this year, but could end up being a good Ivy-sized post.
I kept joking down the stretch that Harvard might be better next year than this year (that’s a little more possible given Harvard’s tendency to blow late leads that wrecked its ratings). I don’t think that’s the favored side of the bet, but I think there are still decent odds it could be.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Next year
03-16-20 10:37 PM - Post#304730
In response to mrjames
In both Harvard and Penn's cases it is hard to argue that players that didn't start this year will be better than this year's starters next year. In Penn's case the improvement may come from the three Frosh who got lots of time and injured players who would have played this year.
Still, I label Penn high variance because so much depends on production from new people or young people getting better. It's a great opportunity for Steve, if he is up to and health permits. I would bet on Dartmouth improving. I am merely hopeful about Penn.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-16-20 11:09 PM - Post#304731
In response to UPIA1968
Dartmouth loses 3 seniors(not including Barry, who may transfer as a grad transfer), although Knight is a stud. I don't think they have enough depth to overcome that and move from the lower 4 to the top 4.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-16-20 11:58 PM - Post#304732
In response to welcometothejungle
Princeton returns four starters, including an All- Ivy point
guard, and three other rotation players. They need to figure
out the center position, but so does most of the League.
Going into the season (I hope there is one), I would think Penn is at greater risk of missing the Tournament.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-20 12:44 AM - Post#304733
In response to LocalTiger
Sadly I’d agree with the sentiment that Penn has a better chance to miss tournament than Princeton.
The loss of RA is huge but all other key players of note are back and clearly we haven’t done much against them in general (Donahue is I think 2-10 against them as coach of Penn...). Plus they do have a very strong center recruit coming in who could step into that role.
I like a lot of next year’s pool of players for Penn IF guys truly come back healthy, but that’s a big IF based on the last few years. Just a lot of unknowns.
I do actually really like the frosh that will be coming in, but no true post players is a huge miss, and I don’t know if any of them come in for big minutes right away. I really like skill and competitiveness of Clark Slajchert, but he is 6’1†and about 150 pounds last I’ve seen posted. Going to need to get stronger fast. Berger is a great shooter but we have a lot of wings in front of him. Physically Andrew Laczkowski looks like he could be ready fastest (also like his shooting and rebounding as a 6’6†kid) to add forward minutes but would have to pass Eddie Scott, Max Martz and if healthy Mike Wang for the wing/stretch forward type role.
Still I think this class is missing pieces and we missed on our top targets (at least top ranked ones), so not ideal. I’m still hoping we can land a surprise big, but nothing on public radar that I’ve seen.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 06:45 AM - Post#304734
In response to palestra38
Dartmouth loses 3 seniors(not including Barry, who may transfer as a grad transfer),
Those guys are replaceable. Knight and Rai were our best players by far and are both eligible to return.
Of course, here's hoping that they DO return. A big reason that Dartmouth hasn't done better is that a lot of our good guys have been transferring in recent years.
In contrast, for our football team, pretty much every guy who has a potential fifth year of eligibility has chosen to return. Not a coincidence that football has been doing well.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 11:02 AM - Post#304740
In response to palestra38
Returning rotation players (5) with total minutes to date:
Jordan Dingle…783
Lucas Monroe…402
Eddie Scott…618
Max Martz…621
Jarrod Simmons…482
Returning bench players (4):
MLL…31
Mark Jackson…16
Griffin Ryan…30
Alex Imegwu…30
Incoming freshmen (3):
TJ Berger
Clark Slajchert
Andrew Laczkowski
Coming off injuries (4):
Bryce Washington…729
Jelanie Williams…0 – off-season surgery
Jonah Charles…0 – off-season surgery
Michael Wang…471 – off-season surgery
Above is another look at what we have coming back with their total-to-date playing time. If Wang and Washington play next season, we essentially have 7 experienced rotation players returning who have all surpassed the HG 400-minute mark. Further, we have two Seniors in Scott and Simmons returning with some rotation experience. Jackson and Williams will also be seniors. In Simmons, Wang, and MLL, we have 3 F’s who all came in with 3-4* ratings. While Wang complemented AJ’s game, Simmons and MLL did not. We will see what Simmons and MLL can do with what is likely to be significant playing time. I have no idea who of Jackson, Ryan, Imegwu, Berger, Slajchert, or Laczkowski will get meaningful minutes, but with only 5-7 rotation players returning, we are likely to see one or more of these players on the court when it matters.
A couple of questions I have out of many:
P38, is your prediction of 1 returning injured player just skepticism, or do you have information suggesting that it will be one? After 2 ACL surgeries and 3 years off, I admit it is prudent to wait and see on Jelanie. However, I would have hoped that all the other injured players would be likely returnees. Last December, it sounded as if both Wang and Charles would return for the Ivy season. Further, Washington’s injury did not require surgery, so I am assuming he will be back as well.
If Wang is healthy, do Martz and Wang play together especially if one of MLL and Simmons is playing? I think that Martz will get 30 min per game. Hence, it will be interesting to see where Wang fits in.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 11:06 AM - Post#304742
In response to Condor
I have heard discouraging things about Wang's possible return. Washington and Jelani are doubtful because Washington wasn't playing even before he got hurt and Jelani has 2 ACLs. Jonah I expect to play and play well.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 11:23 AM - Post#304744
In response to palestra38
It's easy to forget - Jelani has injured his ACL 3 times, not 2.
He is clearly in a very unusual category- I suspect everyone will be rooting hard for him, but it's impossible to handicap his chances.
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frank
Junior
Posts: 211
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 11:45 AM - Post#304748
In response to QHoops
Can anyone think of a freshman who was third-string and played only 31 minutes who then turned out to be a competent player, much less a good one, in his sophomore year?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 12:24 PM - Post#304750
In response to frank
Tough to compare with a guy who played behind a senior star like AJ.
Schiffner averaged 2.5 as a freshman, 10 as a soph.
Koko Archibong averaged 3.2 as a freshman, 10 as a soph.
Danley 2.6 as a freshman, 9.2 as a soph.
And the greatest all time example of what PT can do:
Don Moxley--1.2, 1.3, 1.4 his first 3 years; 12.6 as a senior
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 12:41 PM - Post#304753
In response to palestra38
I have heard discouraging things about Wang's possible return. Washington and Jelani are doubtful because Washington wasn't playing even before he got hurt and Jelani has 2 ACLs. Jonah I expect to play and play well.
So what have you heard about Wang and from whom?
Do you really think Donahue will bury Washington next year based on 2019-20?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 01:03 PM - Post#304755
In response to OldBig5
I can't really say who, but the substance is that they do not really know the source of his pain and are unsure that he can play through it or resolve it. I hope this is wrong, of course.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-17-20 01:03 PM - Post#304756
In response to OldBig5
I get the impression that Wang's problem relates to excess inflammation, which might be linked to some sort of autoimmune problem. If that's the case, he's probably going to continue to struggle with that, and he's not going to be able to maximize his potential on the court.
As for Washington, I'd love to know what the hell happened to him. Was his freshman performance just a fluke? That seems unlikely. If not, then hopefully the factors that prevented him from contributing this year will not be present next year. I guess we'll find out.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-17-20 02:47 PM - Post#304760
In response to Silver Maple
I like the incoming frosh as fits with Donahue's system, but none have clear stardom and readiness to compete next year written all over them. There haven't been many frosh ready to do so. Even Allen, Ibby, and Rosen were not complete players at that point. If our prospects for next year are counting on them, I will be skeptical on the outlook. A Dingle/Charles/Washington backcourt would be slightly above average. We have many capable wings, but none clearly and consistently above league replacement. I'm hoping it will be Scott's breakout year. A Wang/Simmons/MLL front court is truly an unknown.
We will compete, but there will be no gimme games and it's hard to believe we will be more consistent than this year's confounding team.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-17-20 02:48 PM - Post#304761
In response to Silver Maple
Washington played pretty sparingly down the stretch last year after a first half where, at times, he was among the best players on the court.
Then this season, shut down entirely after December 2019, which from all accounts seemed to be injury related.
A mystery indeed.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 03:35 PM - Post#304762
In response to frank
Can anyone think of a freshman who was third-string and played only 31 minutes who then turned out to be a competent player, much less a good one, in his sophomore year?
League wide there are many examples of this, even recently. Christian Juzang played little as a frosh, Matthue Cotton very little last year, James Foye played 23 minutes as frosh and averaged 30+ this year for Dartmouth. I am sure this is not at all uncommon.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-17-20 03:43 PM - Post#304764
In response to PennFan10
Bryce was hurt this year. That's really the only thing that kept him from being a regular part of the rotation.
I have heard same thing on Wang. Not sure what the resolution is.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-20 03:50 PM - Post#304766
In response to PennFan10
Well that is terrible to hear about Wang, and hope something changes there...
BUT this is another reason why it is SO important to stack recruiting classes, and why it is such a MISS to have no true bigs currently in the 2020 class. If Wang really can't play like everyone hopes, we will be desperately thin inside next year.
Hope in this downtime, the coaches are reviewing every bit of tape on any available and qualified big still out there for 2020...
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-17-20 04:17 PM - Post#304767
In response to PennFan10
While I had heard a lot of questions and theories on Wang, I also heard that their was at least a course of action at the point when he got shut down for the season that was thought would provide a positive resolution for next year. I have no idea if anything discouraging has happened since then.
On Williams, he looked mobile and free and easy in warmups overthe last couple of months. That might not translate into div 1 b-ball, but it would be great to see if it did.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-17-20 05:09 PM - Post#304771
In response to SomeGuy
I think Jelani is motivated. Can his body match his mind? I don't think he even knows yet.
Wang: I don't think anything has changed on the course of action. It may just be frustration at pace of recovery. There is nothing to be worried about here yet I think.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Next year
03-17-20 05:10 PM - Post#304772
In response to PennFan10
Of all the guys named (for Penn or across the league), only Foye played as sparingly as MLL freshman year. Cotton and Juzang played 3 times as much, and Schiffner, Archibong, and Danley more multiples than that. Danley was in the rotation almost all year as a freshman, I believe, Koko most of the year, and Schiffner by the end of the year.
I did a little more looking, and came up with a couple of Yale guys: Jack Montague and Sam Downey. With Foye, Montague, and Downey, all became rotation players as sophs, and then starters after that. All after playing under 40 minutes against D1 teams as freshmen.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-17-20 05:43 PM - Post#304774
In response to SomeGuy
For what it is worth, Henry Caruso played 19 minutes as a freshman and was first team All Ivy as a junior.
Richmond Aririguzoh played about 65 minutes as a freshman
And was All- Ivy as a junior and senior.
Some guys develop later and some do not get time
Early because of the roster.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-17-20 08:06 PM - Post#304776
In response to LocalTiger
Yea juzang played almost half his frost minutes in one game in China. This whole concept is not a thing really.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-20 09:10 PM - Post#304778
In response to PennFan10
You can often tell a bit by who people are playing behind. Juzang playing behind Siyani or Bryce - no shame in that.
The issue is when a freshman isn’t playing when there’s clearly time to win. That usually tells you something, and normally it’s not good.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-20 09:03 AM - Post#304782
In response to mrjames
And MLL has been behind AJ Brodeur, which is no sin.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-20 09:12 AM - Post#304784
In response to PennFan10
And it took AJ a while to become the player he was in that system. Simmons was not able to play in that role as a substitute effectively. No surprise that they really didn't even try MLL.
It will have to be a different offense because MLL now has to play---just to get his shot blocking and athleticism on the court.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-20 10:47 AM - Post#304793
In response to palestra38
Yes, what is needed to play a few minutes backing up AJ, and what will be needed next year without AJ are two different things. However, don’t count Simmons out. More rope could make him a different player. If body language is an indicator, he often seems to get frustrated when things don’t go his way. Could be that he plays freer when he isn’t looking over his shoulder.
I am hoping that this ends up being a question of who fits best with Wang. If Wang is playing the AJ spot on offense, it may be a question of who can best play the AJ spot on defense (which likely isn’t Wang). Despite the fact that Simmons was our one big on the floor without AJ this year, I always thought that defensively he played best with AJ (where generally Simmons would guard the primary low post threat and AJ would be lurking to double/help).
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-18-20 02:08 PM - Post#304813
In response to SomeGuy
If body language is an indicator, he often seems to get frustrated when things don’t go his way. Could be that he plays freer when he isn’t looking over his shoulder.
It's the same body language that has been on display since the red and blue scrimmage his freshman year, so I wouldn't get your hopes up on that front. I do think he'll be more productive for us next year, as the minutes alone will dictate it and there is an offensive game in there. I'd like to think Steve operated this year thinking about next year as well, but we'll see. We're not in practice so there's no way to know what MLL is being taught, but obviously he needs to be a main cog going forward.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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06-21-20 05:21 PM - Post#309361
In response to Quakers03
Some good news: Jelani Williams has been posting updates on his Instagram account about his rehabilitation and it looks like it has been going very well.
Today he posted two videos of him dunking, one was a windmill. Will he have the same bounce he did three years ago? Probably not. But should his progress continue, I think we could be pleasantly surprised with his playing ability beyond just seeing the court again.
Definitely an inspiration, how far he’s come and chosen to persevere through debilitating injury. Wishing him the best
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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06-21-20 11:57 PM - Post#309370
In response to Quake Show
The summer of 2018 in Italy SD said Jelani was their best player in the practices and 3 games they played. For the kid I hope he gets back to that level.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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06-22-20 02:12 PM - Post#309394
In response to Quake Show
Good news--thanks for the update.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-01-20 07:24 PM - Post#309877
In response to OldBig5
Video of Andrew Laczkowski (and younger brother Tate) working out:
https://twitter.com/dp2nice/status/127846 713168071...
I think a lot of people commenting on Penn’s depth next year have excluded the incoming freshmen from that discussion: he will be an interesting piece. I don’t think he’s big enough to play a college forward like Martz but he is big enough to have a size advantage at the 2 or 3. Should be interesting, and fwiw I think our class will surprise people. Will it be the best class in the league? Probably not, but I’m optimistic.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-04-20 03:40 PM - Post#309952
In response to Quake Show
This is a really cool video to watch if you’re a basketball nerd, it shows some of the designed plays Penn runs a lot. Really easy to see why Donahue is regarded as a great offensive mind, and also how coaches from the same coaching tree like Fran O’Hanlon know how to guard against it.
https://twitter.com/coachjayoh/status/120 336186779...
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-09-20 04:59 PM - Post#310209
In response to Quake Show
Jelani Williams has been cleared to play this season.
Has two years of eligibility.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-09-20 05:09 PM - Post#310211
In response to Quake Show
Jelani Williams has been cleared to play this season.
Has two years of eligibility.
Just his mazel. Right in the midst of corona.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-09-20 09:53 PM - Post#310224
In response to penn nation
Depending on how the situation progresses, he might have another year of eligibility at Penn if winter sports are subject to the same allowances as fall sports.
Not sure he would want to stay for a sixth year, though, without getting a graduate degree at the least.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-13-20 07:30 AM - Post#310274
In response to Quake Show
At this rate, he will soon qualify for a doctorate from the School of Hard Knocks.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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09-15-20 05:39 PM - Post#313391
In response to Ancient Quaker
Just thought I'd throw some observations out there – mostly good news in a sea of mostly bad regarding the pandemic and the college basketball season.
First, I'm sure many of you saw a recent DP article in which Coach Donahue is hopeful about Penn and the IL's ability to have a season, with specific emphasis on perhaps squeezing some non-conference games beforehand because of Penn's proximity to other schools. Fingers crossed.
Andrew Laczkowski underwent a serious knee surgery several weeks ago, unclear on what it was for or what the prognosis is, but never something you want to hear.
Several Penn players played several Temple players at the 76ers Field House last week, and looked pretty solid from what video clips I saw on social media. MLL is looking like a more versatile offensive threat, more comfortable in the high post and setting up the offense, cutting, and with some mean blocks and putback dunks. Jonah Charles and Jelani Williams were playing as well, and seem to be healthy as ever given their injury past. Lucas Monroe was there too and looked great on offense and defense.
Also, Jon Rothstein is reporting that Orlando – and I assume its the same bubble that the NBA is using – will be hosting eight (8!!) MTEs in a bubble-format. I know we were replaced in the Myrtle Beach Field and it's quite a long shot, but it would be great if we could squeeze into one.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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09-15-20 06:09 PM - Post#313394
In response to Quake Show
In the alumni Zoom meeting on Monday, Steve Donahue described the Andrew Laczkowski injury as meniscus surgery, with a recovery time of 3-4 months.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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09-15-20 10:12 PM - Post#313405
In response to Stuart Suss
While there's never any such thing as minor knee surgery, a meniscus procedure is fairly far to the left on the seriousness scale. Let's hope young Laczkowski recovers quickly and completely.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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09-16-20 12:24 AM - Post#313406
In response to Quake Show
Just thought I'd throw some observations out there – mostly good news in a sea of mostly bad regarding the pandemic and the college basketball season.
First, I'm sure many of you saw a recent DP article in which Coach Donahue is hopeful about Penn and the IL's ability to have a season, with specific emphasis on perhaps squeezing some non-conference games beforehand because of Penn's proximity to other schools. Fingers crossed.
Andrew Laczkowski underwent a serious knee surgery several weeks ago, unclear on what it was for or what the prognosis is, but never something you want to hear.
Several Penn players played several Temple players at the 76ers Field House last week, and looked pretty solid from what video clips I saw on social media. MLL is looking like a more versatile offensive threat, more comfortable in the high post and setting up the offense, cutting, and with some mean blocks and putback dunks. Jonah Charles and Jelani Williams were playing as well, and seem to be healthy as ever given their injury past. Lucas Monroe was there too and looked great on offense and defense.
Also, Jon Rothstein is reporting that Orlando – and I assume its the same bubble that the NBA is using – will be hosting eight (8!!) MTEs in a bubble-format. I know we were replaced in the Myrtle Beach Field and it's quite a long shot, but it would be great if we could squeeze into one.
Good call out, will have to catch up on articles and thanks for sharing.
Whereabouts did you see videos of Penn guys playing Temple guys on social?
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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10-01-20 04:52 PM - Post#314391
In response to Mike Porter
Article in The Athletic today about us:
https://theathletic.com/2100997/
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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10-01-20 11:21 PM - Post#314419
In response to Quake Show
Since I do not have a subscription to The Athletic, I can't read the article.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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10-02-20 09:37 AM - Post#314450
In response to SteveChop
It's a good read with a few interesting tidbits about how the seniors spoke up after the second Princeton loss and things changed with the way the youngsters practiced and approached the game from that point forward.
I also found this one from Steve fairly interesting:
That whole sophomore class, not that they're different than the guys we've had, but they're really dedicated to the game and they decided to come to Penn for a lot of reasons, but basketball is a big part of their lives.
We also learned that Slajchert was known as The Rattle Snake and has been known to "blow a kiss at fans." Lol. He's going to drive our opponents nuts.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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10-02-20 11:26 AM - Post#314464
In response to Quakers03
I assume it's this year's soph class the quote is referring to?
Slacker had some sick numbers last year. I knew about that 30+ PPG but around 7 assists, 2.5 steals, 4.5 rebounds, and 1 block per game also. Over 40% on the 3's, 87% FT%. With those numbers he can do whatever he wants.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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10-02-20 11:32 AM - Post#314466
In response to TheLine
Yes. It's this years Soph class to which he is referring. I read it as a thinly veiled shot at the now seniors, but maybe that's just me.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-20 12:32 PM - Post#314472
In response to Quakers03
I didn't take it as a shot at the seniors. I think he is just being honest that the sophs will really be the heart of this team moving forward (in the same way AJ, Dev, and Ryan were even from their frosh year).
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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10-02-20 01:56 PM - Post#314478
In response to Mike Porter
The other thing I took away from that piece is that Wang is apparently healthy. If that's the case, we are in much better shape collectively than if he isn't healthy.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-20 02:07 PM - Post#314479
In response to weinhauers_ghost
During the Zoom call with alumni on September 14, Steve Donahue discussed the injury status of various players. The news was positive regarding three of the four:
Jelani Williams: "healthy, playing at full strength"
Jonah Charles: "healthy now"
Michael Wang: "close to 100%" following microfracture surgery
Bryce Washington: "still struggling" seeing a third doctor to locate a broken bone somewhere in the wrist
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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10-02-20 03:00 PM - Post#314481
In response to Stuart Suss
During the Zoom call with alumni on September 14, Steve Donahue discussed the injury status of various players. The news was positive regarding three of the four:
Jelani Williams: "healthy, playing at full strength"
Jonah Charles: "healthy now"
Michael Wang: "close to 100%" following microfracture surgery
Bryce Washington: "still struggling" seeing a third doctor to locate a broken bone somewhere in the wrist
Microfracture surgery is a concern going forward. Very few players at any level have successfully rehabbed from that, and most who continued to play were never quite as explosive as they had been. Perhaps in Wang's case, he won't miss the explosiveness he didn't really display, and can still be effective purely on skill.
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