palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 01:14 PM - Post#308667
In response to mrjames
I think your statement may have surpassed it.
Most Penn fans would agree that Harvard right now has an institutional advantage that, has Sullivan had it, would have allowed him to win the recruiting battles he always lost. This isn't to say that Amaker isn't a great recruiter. But getting 3X as much money as any other Ivy coach gives him some street cred when he is out there. And as I put it with his approach to talking FA with recruits, don't think he doesn't play up the institutional support he has in comparison with every other Ivy school.
You are simply wrong on this---Harvard is getting the best recruits year after year because of the brand, the FA and the institutional support. And Amaker knows it and plays it up to the hilt. Doesn't mean they will win the title every year, but puts them in the running every year.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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06-08-20 01:23 PM - Post#308669
In response to palestra38
But getting 3X as much money as any other Ivy coach gives him some street cred when he is out there.
Not when they play in the facility that they are currently in.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 01:35 PM - Post#308671
In response to palestra38
Most Penn fans would agree that Harvard right now has an institutional advantage that, has Sullivan had it, would have allowed him to win the recruiting battles he always lost.
These are absolute gems. Keep them coming.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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2021 Recruiting
06-08-20 01:40 PM - Post#308673
In response to mrjames
AS long as you keep insisting that there is a level playing field, I'll be here. But when was Harvard's last title, anyway?
Strange. I don't remember Amaker dominating the Big Ten in recruiting when he was at Michigan. Nor Seton Hall, despite a nice NCAA run one year, when he left after an ugly fist fight in the locker room and reports of unrest among players, after missing the NCAA's 3 of his 4 years (he never made it from Michigan). So in your mind, Harvard's domination of recruiting since Amaker came to Allston is really all Tommy. OK. Fine, whatever. But that's your story and I expect you to stick with it.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3996
Reg: 11-23-04
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06-08-20 01:56 PM - Post#308675
In response to palestra38
I.m with P'38 on this. I don't think Penn will win may head-to heads with Y or P either. The "little 4" are even more disadvantaged.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 02:01 PM - Post#308677
In response to palestra38
Harvard won titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2019.
I'm not insisting that there is a level playing field. There are actually multiple playing fields (financial aid is one, then there's the Academic Index/admissions, facilities, resources like weight rooms, etc.). These playing fields all tilt in different directions and advantage different teams at different times by different amounts.
The relatively well-informed opinion that I am trying to convey here is that the complaints about Harvard having institutional advantages over Penn are wildly overstated. Even the specific institutional advantage being discussed here (FA) is overstated, and that ignores other areas where Penn has a decided advantage.
I've never really understood why, specifically for Penn fans, it is so difficult to give Amaker the credit he deserves. He's been an absolute unicorn hire who not only has built the Harvard program out of nothing but also has spent a ton of time making himself part of the Harvard community. For all of us who ever said that athletic achievement doesn't have to conflict with a positive contribution to the academic environment, Amaker has built a program that embodies this. To say that an average coach could have done what he has is either laziness or bitterness, but it's not accurate.
Finally, and I really want to emphasize this: Our opinions are not equal. My opinion should carry more weight than yours, because it's more informed than yours. While I know that's a source of frustration on these boards, it's also the truth, and I feel compelled to share that fact from time to time.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2021 Recruiting
06-08-20 02:09 PM - Post#308678
In response to palestra38
Strange. I don't remember Amaker dominating the Big Ten in recruiting when he was at Michigan. Nor Seton Hall, despite a nice NCAA run one year, when he left after an ugly fist fight in the locker room and reports of unrest among players, after missing the NCAA's 3 of his 4 years (he never made it from Michigan)
https://www.thesetonian.com/2020/04/17/the-forgot t...
Team recruiting rankings were sketchy back in the mid-00s, but Michigan was generally top 5 in the Big Ten and I believe one of Amaker's classes was Top 10 nationally. At a program that was just leaving heavy sanctions.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 02:24 PM - Post#308680
In response to mrjames
It is going to be exciting around here.
Whenever he posts political opinions, Palestra38 tells the rest of us (implicitly, if not explicitly):
<<Our opinions are not equal. My opinion should carry more weight than yours, because it's more informed than yours. While I know that's a source of frustration on these boards, it's also the truth, and I feel compelled to share that fact from time to time.>>
Now that Palestra38 is receiving a taste of his own medicine from Mike James, I can't wait for the fireworks to begin.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 02:43 PM - Post#308682
In response to Stuart Suss
Stu, while I am aware from talking to you in the past that our political views are not very similar, I cannot recall a single time we exchanged views on this board or in the OTB. So I think that statement is unwarranted.
As far as Mike saying he knows better, let me revise that to he has far more information about recruiting than I. I don't think he has far more information about institutional support, nor the past history of these programs. He's just viewing the chicken and egg problem (here the Amaker and Harvard change in institutional priorities which occurred at the same time) as having an easy answer---a Unicorn.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-08-20 02:43 PM - Post#308683
In response to palestra38
An advantage that Jones and Donahue have over Harvard is that they can tell top recruits that top recruits always get to play at Yale and Penn. Fewer bites at the apple means that you will find ways to make it work. A top recruit going to Harvard always has the possibility of ending up being Chris Egi and never getting to play. And you aren’t even guaranteed to keep playing if you are a starter early in your career. You could end up being Christian Webster.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-08-20 03:05 PM - Post#308684
In response to mrjames
I certainly value your factual contributions to the board over just about anyone’s. However, you have lost me on some of the Amaker stuff, which seems personal. Are there some Penn fans who don’t like the guy? Obviously. And my other alma mater is Michigan, so I know a heck of a lot more passionate irrational basketball fans who don’t like the guy. But I’m not one of the people who doesn’t like him. I think he’s great for Harvard and the league. And yet any suggestion I make that suggests that he might be a smidge behind Jones because I think Harvard has some institutional advantages seems to be an unfactual affront. At the very least, it seems to me to be debatable. The debate is certainly more fun if you can come up with better arguments than “This is what I say and I know more than you.â€
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 03:14 PM - Post#308685
In response to SomeGuy
And I have been hardly "anti-Amaker." I readily acknowledge that he is a great recruiter with well established ties to recruiting networks. I don't quite understand Mike's visceral reaction here. I haven't even really criticized his on-court coaching, other than to say that the results have not necessarily exceeded the talent, even with the injuries. But contrary to what Stu seems to think, I don't have any problem with Mike disagreeing and having his own opinion---indeed, the reverse appears to be the case.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 03:23 PM - Post#308688
In response to palestra38
I have covered this league heading into my 19th season. I have FAR more information about the administration of this basketball league than you. I didn't even think that was going to be a question.
What I want to clear up, because my above statement reads horribly, I don't mean to contend that your basketball opinions aren't more valid than mine (aside from basketball analytics, in which I have particular expertise). They probably are. Especially on Penn basketball. And the pre-2000s, I have very little insight there either.
But if you're going to look at The Palestra, the Big 5, the history of Ivy championships and a Final Four that wasn't in the Stone Ages, more admissions flexibility, more administrative flexibility (for instance, Penn can play MTEs whenever it wants and violate the 2-in-4 rule while other schools have to stick to 2-in-4 and aren't allowed to play MTEs that aren't during a holiday break) and weigh that against having slightly less favorable FA than H-Y (with the ability to match) and some how say that the latter matters more, then I don't know what to tell you. You're just choosing to live in a Fantasy Land.
Go hire Chris Collins when he gets let go from Northwestern. Or similar. Things would change quickly.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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06-08-20 03:27 PM - Post#308689
In response to mrjames
I've never really understood why, specifically for Penn fans, it is so difficult to give Amaker the credit he deserves.
Why would fans of team "give credit" to a head coach they root against? Is it weird for Eagles to make fun of Jason Garrett's in-game decisions even while he proved himself to be an adept QB developer? Should Florida fans give a standing ovation to Nick Saban when Alabama plays in the Swamp?
Just because some people here want to root "for the league" doesn't mean all of us do.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 03:38 PM - Post#308690
In response to mrjames
Well, I wanted to do something similar when they fired Miller. Like you, the Penn administration didn't listen to me either.
Look, I agree that Amaker is a better recruiter than Donahue. But the question is if you reversed them and Donahue had every bit as much support as Amaker has, would the results be the same. I think Donahue would fare much better in these head to head matchups.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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06-08-20 03:45 PM - Post#308691
In response to palestra38
I think your statement may have surpassed it.
Most Penn fans would agree that Harvard right now has an institutional advantage that, has Sullivan had it, would have allowed him to win the recruiting battles he always lost. This isn't to say that Amaker isn't a great recruiter. But getting 3X as much money as any other Ivy coach gives him some street cred when he is out there. And as I put it with his approach to talking FA with recruits, don't think he doesn't play up the institutional support he has in comparison with every other Ivy school.
You are simply wrong on this---Harvard is getting the best recruits year after year because of the brand, the FA and the institutional support. And Amaker knows it and plays it up to the hilt. Doesn't mean they will win the title every year, but puts them in the running every year.
Yeah... I don't know if I am most Penn fans, but I couldn't disagree with this more. In my view it is a defeatist and small minded view of the Ivy Basketball world. It's a perfect way to accept/allow mediocrity in recruiting regardless of who Harvard's or Penn's coaches would be, oh and it also instantly detracts from Amaker's A++ skill in recruiting (which he showed at all levels of basketball coaching he has been it before Harvard). That's absurd. Penn has a lot to sell, and even has certain advantages, and if you don’t see that I don’t really know how to respond.
Let’s take a blast to the past when Amaker landed at Harvard and they SUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKEEED. Like they sucked the suckiest suck that ever sucked a suck. In about 10 minutes he came in, while Harvard had zero basketball history or credibility, and punched Penn right in the jimmy by snagging Keith Wright, Oliver McNally, and Max Kenyi in his first class (all kids Penn wanted). Those kids committed mere months after Penn won Ivy League and was dancing in the NCAAs in 2007. Then his next class was even better in year 2, and it is history from there.
Let’s look at these all over the map type advantages being thrown about:
- Brand name: Of course Harvard has this, no argument and it is a BIG advantage. BUT, they had this in the past and were terrible, so not insurmountable.
- Financial policies: Did Harvard even have the financial policy then (I genuinely don’t remember when that started)?
- AI: Did Harvard allow Amaker to go lower than Sullivan could in the AI? They sure did, but it still wouldn’t have been any lower than Miller could go at Penn at the same time (still would have same floor regardless, and still would have had less slots at that floor than Penn). So sure, an advantage over what Sullivan got, but not an advantage over Penn.
- Amaker’s Pay: I have no idea what Amaker gets paid, but what the heck does that have to do with recruiting? Leaving that, I’ve never seen it stated anywhere that he gets 3X any other coaches. Not saying he doesn’t, but can you please point me to the source of that math? You keep saying this despite there being no connection whatsoever to ability to recruit, but since you keep saying it, would like to see the numbers myself.
- “AAU Connectionsâ€: I’m not sure what you’re going on about with “AAU connections†like that is some mystical thing… I don’t even know if that is a strength Amaker truly brings (or if it is even that relevant for Ivy recruiting), but even if it was, any coach can build AAU connections, it is relationship building exercise, so how is that some unachievable goal?
You know what the advantage was for Harvard in that 2008 class I mentioned with Wright, McNally, and Kenyi? Miller had the personality of a box of nails and was a mediocre recruiter, meanwhile Amaker could recruit his butt off and sell a future vision of Harvard kicking butt in basketball (even though they SUUUCCCKKKED). Those kids believed him, and they were right to because it came true. Recruiting is a SKILL, and a key skill to succeed as a college coach.
Oh and here is the thing... Penn currently doesn't just only lose to Harvard or Yale (as was stated earlier in thread) for competitive recruits. We don’t win enough recruiting battles (regardless of who is involved) for kids that have a lot of competition, and particularly higher competition. We do win a handful like MLL or AJ, but otherwise, if you truly go look through offers, you’d find that we lose TOO MANY of the high stakes recruiting battles.
I want Coach Donahue and staff to win and succeed, but I can be honest with myself about the reality of what has happened to date and what needs to happen in the future to succeed at the level we all want. That includes winning more recruiting battles, and I don’t believe we are so disadvantaged that it can’t happen. Our staff really good at identifying under recruited players that are REALLY GOOD players which is awesome and also is a skill, but we need to get better at getting W’s in the tougher recruiting battles.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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2021 Recruiting
06-08-20 03:46 PM - Post#308692
In response to mrjames
Mike
I'm not going to get into the urinating contest between you and P38. However, your statement that "Penn can play MTEs whenever it wants and violate the 2-in-4 rule while other schools have to stick to 2-in-4 and aren't allowed to play MTEs that aren't during a holiday break" is either incorrect or disingenuous.
Penn elected to play in what was an MTE for other teams but counted as THREE GAMES for Penn as an alternative to playing games against lower level Division 1 teams to have a more competitive schedule and to help balance some of the recruiting disadvantages it has versus HYP which have been discussed ad naseum above (as well as some probably financial considerations). As you are probably aware, (if there is a 2020-2021 season) Penn is playing in another MTE in Myrtle Beach. I am unaware that this violates any Ivy rule (including the 2 in 4 rule) - if it did, I'm sure Penn would not be allowed to do this.
I resent the implication that Penn is somehow "cheating" by scheduling MTEs in this manner. Just because the other Ivy schools have elected not to do this does not make Penn a rules "violator"
Edited by SteveChop on 06-08-20 03:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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2021 Recruiting
06-08-20 03:56 PM - Post#308693
In response to besnoah
I've never really understood why, specifically for Penn fans, it is so difficult to give Amaker the credit he deserves.
Why would fans of team "give credit" to a head coach they root against? Is it weird for Eagles to make fun of Jason Garrett's in-game decisions even while he proved himself to be an adept QB developer? Should Florida fans give a standing ovation to Nick Saban when Alabama plays in the Swamp?
Just because some people here want to root "for the league" doesn't mean all of us do.
So for the record, I hate that I feel I have to defend Amaker. If not clear, like I assume you would, I would be really happy if he took another job somewhere else, so things were easier for Penn. I don't mind being honest and giving credit where credit is due though in saying he is a great recruiter. In fact, that's the reason I would love if he went somewhere else - I think it is more Amaker that is actually the biggest advantage they have in recruiting and I do not think someone else is going to come in and instantly be able to replicate that.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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06-08-20 03:57 PM - Post#308694
In response to mrjames
Chris Collins seems like a weird example. If this stuff is really all about the coaches’ ability to recruit, shouldn’t he have been able to elevate Northwestern?
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2021 Recruiting
06-08-20 04:14 PM - Post#308695
In response to SteveChop
First of all, I've been pretty public in APPLAUDING Penn for taking this approach to MTEs. The 2-in-4 rule is ridiculous, and my hope is that if other Ivies join Penn in what they're doing, that ultimately it will be changed either to permitting one each year or keeping 2-in-4 but explicitly permitting participating all four years, but counting each game twice.
That being said, last I heard, Penn was potentially going to be penalized for participating in excess MTEs (loss of a game from the schedule was my understanding). I have not heard about a final ruling taking place.
I don't think Penn is cheating - even if it gets penalized, I still don't think it's cheating. It's the league office being ridiculous. It's still an advantage to have an administration that will support attacking a weak and dumb rule.
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