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Username Post: Recruiting pool        (Topic#24271)
Condor 
PhD Student
Posts: 1729

Reg: 11-21-04
04-19-20 07:43 AM - Post#306365    

MrJames,

From my perspective, it appears that the Ivy’s have lowered their sights since the AI increased. I know in the past you felt that Ivy BB recruiting was not a zero-sum game. However, if I am correct about the smaller pool, hasn’t it indeed become the case. With the current AI, what are your thoughts as well as everyone else about the recruiting opportunities. Are Harvard and Yale the only winners?


 
Condor 
PhD Student
Posts: 1729

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: cruiting pool
04-19-20 08:07 AM - Post#306366    
    In response to Condor

To be clear, I do not think anyone is a winner with the higher AI. Further, I believe every school has their advantages. My winner comment was really just meant to indicate a competitive advantage for recruits that occurs when you limit available money to athletes and increase the admittance standards.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5886

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: cruiting pool
04-19-20 08:53 AM - Post#306368    
    In response to Condor

It’s a fair question after the 2020 pool evaporated. That being said, my understanding is that the pool of top targets that weren’t AI eligible weren’t exactly casualties of the recent raises of the bar but rather wouldn’t have been qualified under the earlier thresholds either.

It’s also a fair question heading into 2021, when kids may have limited opportunity to test and thus we may see some close calls not be able to test enough to get over the bar. In that respect, 2021 might be the biggest challenge to my thesis that if you offered coaches full scholarships OR reverting the AI from the 186 (IIRC) today to the 169-171 it was at when I was in school that they would immediately take the former.

In any normal year, though, scholarships would widen the pool further than reverting the AI to its previous level would. We just don’t hear as much about the non-FA kids, because that read comes early and programs can stop pursuing kids that they know they can’t get due to FA.

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-19-20 10:19 AM - Post#306371    
    In response to mrjames

Yale and Harvard are definitely happier now.

in 1994 penn was inviting recruits into the Wharton school without an application filled out in December of ones senior year (yep, Coach Dunphy and an SAT score)
In the 90s
Yale Harvard and princeton weren’t advising on admission other than saying we’re hopeful based on your grades test scores class rank at an elite school and your priority on our list.

Steve pikiell formerly a Yale asst(now turning around Rutgers) could barely could a word in at admissions other than collectively ranking recruits for their benefit.

But pike I have a bunch of exploding offers. I will call admissions back and let them know.

The introduction of likely letters in recent years leveled the field somewhat though in the 90s the AI demands of HYP vs the field was just a crazy disparity

The winning may have tilted it in what used to be a very unfair game For HYP vs the field

Their endowments and liberal FA really help as well

New stats at Yale admissions on the degree of aid are amazing. Would presume the same for harvard and princeton

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3747

Reg: 11-23-04
04-19-20 01:31 PM - Post#306378    
    In response to james

I agree with MJ’s thesis, but the current system shrunk the pool and advantaged HYP.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5886

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
04-19-20 06:10 PM - Post#306385    
    In response to Old Bear

For sure.

If you’re comparing schollies to *no* AI, some schools would definitely prefer to go back to that (and all schools would if they were permitted to use it). But when it comes to the gradual progression from 169 to 186 (or wherever it might currently be), that difference has been far less punitive to the league than the dramatic expansion of FA has been helpful.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 25299

Reg: 11-21-04
04-19-20 07:32 PM - Post#306388    
    In response to mrjames

Except that the AI is uniform and the ability to provide FA is not. It's absolutely ridiculous that the ability to give financial aid to all students is the deciding factor in HYP essentially being able to give athletic scholarships.

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-22-20 06:03 PM - Post#306507    
    In response to palestra38

Why?

They are private institutions and can do what they want

if you have a problem with it increase your endowment.

The sec spends more money on football bc they make more. That’s life



 
Streamers 
Postdoc
Posts: 4895
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
04-22-20 07:44 PM - Post#306514    
    In response to james

If that's how you see it, then why not bolt the league and join the ACC?

Point is the league was founded on the principle of a level playing field. Either we all play by the spirit off the current rules or we all go full schollie like Duke/Stanford/Northwester n et. al.

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-22-20 11:55 PM - Post#306520    
    In response to Streamers

You miss the point. I can assure you it wasn’t a level field like ever.

It certainly wasn’t in the 90s when I was being recruiting by HYPP. Penn operated more like fsu than an Ivy I can assure you! Dunph told me i had a spot with a phone call.
None of the other guys did. They said it was a process which for me concluded with the admissions programs

it tilted the other way bc HYP has more money per capita and chooses to use it on need based scholarships. And they send likely letters now too. Like penn did 25 yrs ago

Sorry.
Send them a check

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-23-20 12:05 AM - Post#306521    
    In response to james

and hire David Swenson to manage it and you will be level again in no time.

last I checked Yale and Harvard don’t commiserate on funding ceilings and financial aid rates.

They do compete however on all fronts and for All students including athletes and why the hell wouldnt they.



 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-23-20 12:16 AM - Post#306522    
    In response to james

Lastly Yale and Harvard have the same or even less revenue from basketball than penn. why? Because they have a smaller enrollment (at least Yale does) and a smaller gym.
Has to be true for all sports - the same or less with the same or bigger denominator or number of teams

Is that fair?

Should Harvard have to cut back on aid to account for their fancy brand name bc that isn’t fair to Yale which probably loses prospectives to Harvard?

Should penn send them Checks to account for the attendance revenue disparity?

Should David Swenson send the rest of the league money when his endowment outperforms theirs to keep it even

It’s a competitive world out there, bro

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5886

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
04-23-20 08:18 AM - Post#306527    
    In response to james

That was a fun read. As a Florida fan, I always chuckle when j see something branded “FSU.”

Also, always worth mentioning that the only way to FULLY level the playing field is to offer scholarships. P38’s a lawyer so he can tell me if I’m off base, but I’m pretty sure the antitrust ruling pretty much, umm, ruled out setting a standard FA table for any prospective students (even if it was just applied to athletics).

For me, the biggest issue with FA is when a lower FA school “goes it alone” for a recruit (against non-Ivies offering full scholarships). As long as Harvard, Yale or Princeton is involved, the ability to match is there. If there’s one school that might have gotten more out of being at 169 or 171 than today’s AI level relative to expanded FA, it might be Penn. Being able to take many kids in a zone where HYP could only take one was a definite advantage.

 
Streamers 
Postdoc
Posts: 4895
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
04-23-20 02:55 PM - Post#306566    
    In response to james

  • james Said:
You miss the point. I can assure you it wasn’t a level field like ever.

It certainly wasn’t in the 90s when I was being recruiting by HYPP. Penn operated more like fsu than an Ivy I can assure you! Dunph told me i had a spot with a phone call.
None of the other guys did. They said it was a process which for me concluded with the admissions programs

it tilted the other way bc HYP has more money per capita and chooses to use it on need based scholarships. And they send likely letters now too. Like penn did 25 yrs ago




I'm not sure what your point is really. I'm aware that things were different 25 years ago and even more different 45 years ago when I was there.

That was then. Now, the entire league has loosened up their FA policies for all students; some more than others due to the disparity of the balance sheets. Beyond that, I am in the dark as to exactly how that impacts recruiting despite all the references to it on these pages.

Penn may not be HYP on the endowment per student front, but it certainly has the resources to compete financially if it chooses to. Theoretically, they all play by the same AI rules although I think I have read that the allocations between sports can vary (but not between genders.)

I like the idea of a balanced league where all the teams get better. Of course, I want to see Penn put up more banners. I just do not see any good reason why Penn should be at a relative recruiting disadvantage all things considered.


 
Streamers 
Postdoc
Posts: 4895
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Recruiting pool
04-23-20 02:57 PM - Post#306567    
    In response to james

  • james Said:
and hire David Swenson to manage it and you will be level again in no time.




Although this has certainly not always been the case, Penn's endowment performance has been very good; both in the absolute and relative to Ivy peers in recent years.

It will be interesting to see how that plays out this year though.

see analysis here - Yale/Swenson not really standing out

Edited by Streamers on 04-23-20 03:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-24-20 04:43 PM - Post#306631    
    In response to Streamers

the power of compounding...for 30 yrs
That was the point

Which is why Yale’s endowment is so big esp per capita

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-24-20 04:48 PM - Post#306632    
    In response to Streamers

I was right on penn spending.

So they outspend Yale by 30% have a bigger facility and seemingly as good of practice set up if not better

I am not even sure yale gives more FA to basketball players bc it’s an admission office decision anyway
As the coach tells me, “I have a reasonable idea who I can get in now.” As if that’s some sort of accomplishment after 22 yrs at the same school....ha. Just highlights how impossible and unfair it was when he started

At best the only level playing field is hyp now does likely letters
Like penn

So you are right it’s tilted and in penns favor, still



 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
Re: cruiting pool
04-24-20 04:55 PM - Post#306633    
    In response to Streamers

And yea i am not surprised all ivies are doing well.

They essentially copy the Yale model and all Swensons guys have scattered for the most part

But the only point I was making was to the extent Yale wants to use its endowment to drive FA for the student body that’s their prerogative

that’s not to say others can’t or don’t. And it’s not unfair regardless.

It’s an admission decision not a basketball decision. Now has the pool of kids who quality for FA increased making more middle class kids eligible? Yes

And essentially an inner city kid from a humble background gets paid to go to Yale now. Probably true for at least Harvard and Princeton also if not penn

 
james 
Junior
Posts: 223

Age: 45
Reg: 03-18-19
04-24-20 10:15 PM - Post#306651    
    In response to james

not sure this makes yale unique at least to the rest of HYP, but its amazing nonetheless.

if your family makes 15% higher than the median hh income in the US (+~30% to GA's, for ex) your kid gets paid, net to go to school there. or,if coming from the deep south, they essentially pay for your winter clothes and everything else.

so yea, thanks for leveling the AI (learned that on this board) and expanded FA helps recruit the median kid economically against the Furmans and woffords of the world.


https://news.yale.edu/2020/03/26/yale-colle ge-admi...

Scott Wallace-Juedes, director of undergraduate financial aid, said that hundreds of incoming and returning students will receive “a zero parent share” financial aid offer. This is Yale’s most generous financial aid package and includes new enhancements announced last fall.

Under the new policies, all parents in families with less than $75,000 in annual income and typical assets are not asked to make any financial contribution toward the cost of their child’s education, including tuition, room and board, books, and personal expenses. These packages also cover the cost of hospitalization insurance and include a $2,000 startup grant for a student’s first year.

Wallace-Juedes said the current Yale undergraduate student body includes more than 1,000 students who receive Federal Pell Grants for low-income students. This is an increase of 50% in just four years. Yale’s financial aid awards meet 100% of demonstrated financial need without requiring students or their families to take out loans. More than half of all current undergraduates receive a need-based Yale scholarship, with an average annual grant amount of over $55,000. More than 85% of the Yale College Class of 2019 graduated debt-free.

 
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