Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 12:39 PM - Post#320926
In response to SomeGuy
Those meh results are actually the biggest improvement of any team in the league comparing the last four years to the prior four.
Comparing the last five years to the prior five, on average we gained 11 games per season on Harvard overall and 4 games in conference. The problem is that in the prior five we were 12 and 6 games behind them. So even with that big gain, we have remained behind. But the fact we are behind has to do with where we came from, not with how this staff/team is doing. You can’t just flip a switch and go from 7th to 1st. The process starts with pulling up to somewhere in the middle, say, theoretically, 4th.
you're being a politician with the way you're cutting data to technically be true but in the spirit not. We've plateaued. That's not a team on the come.
Also i can't believe how gross you were to Mike and nyc. it's one thing when you disagree with me. It's quite another when people with outside objective perspectives tell you stuff you don't want to hear and you get weird.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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02-18-21 12:44 PM - Post#320927
In response to PennFan10
It's not a low bar.
To be clear - SomeGuy compared the relative success of the past four years with the post-Zack years in the wilderness.
That's a really low bar to jump over.
Further I'm questioning whether we're still on an upward trajectory. It's looking more like a plateau to me.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 01:16 PM - Post#320929
In response to Jeff2sf
What did I say to NYC?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-18-21 01:22 PM - Post#320930
In response to TheLine
I don’t disagree with either of you about the plateau. We’ve been on one. Agreed that, at some point, we need to get off it. I think where my argument gets a lot harder (and it already seems to be pretty hard) is if we take a step back now without AJ and Dev. If the plateau is a leveling off for a few years on the way up, then it isn’t a big deal (Jones, Donahue at Cornell) to me. If this is just our level, it eventually becomes a concern, even for me. But I’m still fully on board for now. But if we start downward from the plateau, well, that is a little different.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 01:31 PM - Post#320931
In response to TheLine
Only Mike put us on the downward plateau train--NYChoops only spoke of recruiting. And Mike never responded either to the fact that our top recruits keep getting hurt---saying that Harvard had some injuries too (not to the recruits, but whatever---we lost Betley too--and I still think if he doesn't get injured, we don't take the step back in '19--remember, we beat Nova and won the Big 5 but just wore down after losing Betley, Wang and Washington to injury). And no one can judge how we are recruiting on an objective basis after losing this year---we had a very good recruiting class notwithstanding losing our top recruit and would have had a young, very athletic team this year.
What it comes down to is that this entire argument is that we aren't winning recruiting battles--something that appears to be true. That does not correlate to having bad recruiting classes or being on a plateau.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-18-21 01:31 PM - Post#320932
In response to PennFan10
It's not a low bar. That's the point. Improving and creating long term success doesn't happen in just 4-5 years when it took 10 to destroy it. To think we can just change our coach and improve our trajectory is lunacy. Many more examples of this being a failed strategy than a successful one. You have to stay the course and look at the longer term.
And nychoops is a great voice but his perspective is VERY limited (by his own admission). Its not an excuse its a fact. His point may still be right but not just based on his limited evidence (I have contrary evidence).
does evidence from the coaches count? "I have NOT been lazy" isn't really evidence.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 01:36 PM - Post#320934
In response to TheLine
Who is the outside contrarian opinion here? It seems to me I’ve been out here on my own plateau here, with occasional help from P38 and PF10 (thanks guys). And the weight of the entire Penn board, plus our most knowledgeable poster from an Ivy (mrjames, who I apologize to again for my unnecessarily personal barb), and a great outside contributor (nychoops, who as best I can tell I have never even argued with at all, but Jeff seems to think I have mistreated), seem to all be aligned on the other side. So I guess I thought I was the one trying to fight back against the echo chamber/conventional wisdom.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 01:44 PM - Post#320935
In response to SomeGuy
It could be my perception but seemed to me that nychoops and mrjames posts were going against the grain of the view of Penn poster predominant opinion that things are fine with the program.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: New 2021 Recruiting Thread
02-18-21 01:59 PM - Post#320936
In response to TheLine
That’s just the tremendous volume of posts by some guy on tilt giving you the impression of a chorus.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-18-21 02:22 PM - Post#320940
In response to SomeGuy
I just wanted to weigh in here that I've found some members of the board hard-headed - it's one thing to argue and debate, and another to never let things go. As I learned from my kids in pre-school, we may need language to agree to disagree instead of some of our endless tirades. They are exhausting.
I have also found the group unnecessarily hostile or critical of mrjames. I have commented many times on this and I am solidly a penn fan. I'm even a Donahue fan, though I have unanswered questions there. Our words have the ability to impact each other, even if this is a discussion group of the willing and we are not using rude language. Too many great posters have left the board over the years over frustration and even hurt feelings. This includes Michael Jordan, who I would happily trade on this board for any other single poster.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-18-21 02:48 PM - Post#320945
In response to Penndemonium
That is fair, particularly about at some point agreeing to disagree. And I definitely made a personal comment that could be viewed as hostile, which I regret and apologized for.
But note that your first point may contradict the second a bit. Yes, we have debated this before. But how did this one start? With a pointed comment from mrjames, not just about whether Penn has a recruiting problem, but referencing posters (presumably me) saying Penn doesn’t have a recruiting problem. What should I be doing there? Rather than just accept the jab, I made some perhaps overly lawyered arguments about why I (still) didn’t think that was the case. He made some good arguments the other way. That’s all fine and good. But then he started down the “I know and you don’t†line of defending an opinion, while likening me to a guy sitting at a barstool making stuff up, which basically becomes something beyond the factual arguments we were making — to me that is more personal, and, from past go rounds on this, mrjames knows I take that personally. I then hit too hard with the “paid shill†comment, but I think I did that after taking a number of unnecessary (though smaller) punches. My point is simply that the hostility/agree to disagree thing should apply both ways — in this case, both sides were being hard headed and showing some hostility.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-18-21 03:29 PM - Post#320949
In response to SomeGuy
I just think we're all being overly sensitive. I don't think anything said here, even the "paid shill" line (which was promptly the subject of an apology) is anything like the kind of truly hateful BS that was thrown about in earlier years that was really unnecessary and personal.
Mike is a big boy---he comes in ready to argue hard. Believe me, in some of the other fora here, if you are not a alum of that school, you will be driven out in minutes. Here, his comments started a vigorous debate, which in these days of great boredom, is a good thing.
At least I think so.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-18-21 03:43 PM - Post#320953
In response to SomeGuy
I get it, and I've been a part of that sometimes. This board has gotten tougher for me with Covid-19 (and secondarily politics). There are a spectrum of views on what the threat is, how important basketball is, and what the duties of the schools are. I get it. I would just advocate for some sensitivity to the fact that some are impacted by this in ways that make it REALLY DEEPLY hard to read the debates. I personally just can't.
Our posts have the ability to impact each other. Too many great posters have left the board over the years over frustration and even hurt feelings. This includes Michael Jordan, who most of us respect in both mind and character. I would happily trade him on this board for any other single poster. While I am always rooting for Penn, I learn more new information from mrjames and nychoops than anyone else here period. We haven't had much program inside information or even teasers for years. Everything else is conjecture and opinions, and maybe we should all acknowledge that. Having a stronger opinion and posting louder arguments doesn't make us more right.
I'd love it if we could just support Penn basketball, support each other as Penn fans, share news, and avoid bleeding each other to death in arguments. It may be impossible for the board not to mirror the real world, but I'd rather this be an escape for like minded fans because this is just a hobby and it doesn't add any value to our lives if it's not fun for everyone.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-18-21 03:47 PM - Post#320954
In response to palestra38
Some day it might be just Big Red Fan and big boys left here. It will be a better board with more people and more support for different opinions. It's not just name-calling that can make this not worth our time anymore.
I just think we're all being overly sensitive. I don't think anything said here, even the "paid shill" line (which was promptly the subject of an apology) is anything like the kind of truly hateful BS that was thrown about in earlier years that was really unnecessary and personal.
Mike is a big boy---he comes in ready to argue hard. Believe me, in some of the other fora here, if you are not a alum of that school, you will be driven out in minutes. Here, his comments started a vigorous debate, which in these days of great boredom, is a good thing.
At least I think so.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-18-21 03:52 PM - Post#320955
In response to Penndemonium
I don't get your point on BRF---he probably incited more personal invective than anyone in Board history. But I don't know what you are talking about with respect to this thread. I like Mike and his opinions, but he does have a tendency to talk down to people, so an occasional flareup is possible. But other than a single comment, I can't think of anything in this thread that was over the line or offensive. So I'm asking you to point it out rather than talk about people who no longer comment here, which happens for many reasons unrelated to this kind of back and forth.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-18-21 04:02 PM - Post#320957
In response to palestra38
i looked back and i don't see any negative talking to nyc by you, someguy. I regret the error.
Mike knows more about basketball than us, so when he talks down to us, we should take that as an expert talking to us. Put some respect on the name.
Now you all think you know a lot of basketball so you don't want to. Whatever. But there is literally no one in the world that knows as much about penn basketball that is not affiliated with the program that would come here to this venue to talk with us. I view that as a treasure.
Like if Tony Romo (or insert a renowned football analyst) wanted to hang out on an Eagles board to discuss his opinions on wentz and hurts.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-18-21 04:05 PM - Post#320958
In response to Jeff2sf
I agree.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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02-18-21 04:13 PM - Post#320962
In response to Penndemonium
This includes Michael Jordan, who most of us respect in both mind and character.
Wait, Jordan used to post here? I honestly don't remember that. I do remember Steve Danley popping in from time to time. Those were some great posts.
And if you're out there, Howard Gensler, please come home. We miss you.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-18-21 04:15 PM - Post#320963
In response to Jeff2sf
Totally agree that Mike knows more than me. Doesn’t mean he’s always right and I’m always wrong, particularly when we are arguing matters of opinion.
More importantly, though, I very much value his input (and if you look back, you can find numerous instances over the years where I have specifically requested his opinion on recruiting matters in particular). I did not intend to drive him off.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-18-21 04:17 PM - Post#320964
In response to palestra38
Again... This isn't all about personal insults and over-the-line comments. We may have thick skins in our broader lives, but just might not have the time or interest to defend our points of view and motives tirelessly. This board will become a darwinian group of survivors willing to be the most persistent advocates. Rather than asking whether we are over-the-line, perhaps we could be neutral to kind and ask ourselves whether we are being tiresome to the other.
In that spirit, I'm just going to let this lie here. This is my personal experience, and you can accept it or not.
I don't get your point on BRF---he probably incited more personal invective than anyone in Board history. But I don't know what you are talking about with respect to this thread. I like Mike and his opinions, but he does have a tendency to talk down to people, so an occasional flareup is possible. But other than a single comment, I can't think of anything in this thread that was over the line or offensive. So I'm asking you to point it out rather than talk about people who no longer comment here, which happens for many reasons unrelated to this kind of back and forth.
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