SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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07-07-20 05:11 PM - Post#310095
See Mike Jensen's column in today's Inquirer re announcement (tomorrow - Wednesday) on Ivy Fall Sports. It does not look good.
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODN/Philade...
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 06:07 PM - Post#310100
In response to SteveChop
I know current students aren’t distraught over no football - with the exception of groups like the Penn Band - but it’s only a matter of time before basketball faces a season shortened or cancelled, especially non-conference.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 06:55 PM - Post#310102
In response to Quake Show
Kind of surprised no one has been talking about this here. Everyone just waiting for the hammer to drop, so don't want to say it aloud and make it come true?
I'll be honest, I like to see Penn Football win and had some crazy moments in my Penn days like seeing the goalposts torn down and thrown into the Schuylkill (which in hindsight was extremely dangerous of course), but it doesn't matter much to me. I check scores and see how we are doing in the season maybe, so wouldn't be a huge loss personally.
BUT the elephant in the room is that they could easily come out tomorrow and say no sports in 2020 at all, and then poof goes the basketball non-conference schedule... or even worse, could say no sports in fall or spring and no basketball season whatsoever.
Depending on what IS said tomorrow, I think we will have to look closely to see how other schools/leagues respond. Depending, I wonder if there could be a negative affect on recruiting or more...
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 07:01 PM - Post#310104
In response to Mike Porter
I just don't see any sports really working out given the trajectory we are currently on as a country. Things are going to get worse this fall before they get better and these "bubbles" are anything but bubbles. Therefore I will stick to betting and fantasy golf and keep hoping the guys I play don't wake up with fevers. I fear it's going to be a grim 6 months wrt sports.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 07:35 PM - Post#310112
In response to Quakers03
Oh too be clear, I completely agree - unfortunately its a cluster@#$% at the moment because people can't follow simple directives to safeguard each other. So, I understand if there are no sports in the fall and think it would be justified unless we see a quick change or game changer like a vaccine.
BUT, if we go the no sports route and not everyone else does, there could be negative implications for us as well. So will have to see where it all goes.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 07:40 PM - Post#310114
In response to Mike Porter
In the heart of college football land, the brilliant Florida governor has ordered all schools to reopen in person for the fall (that's August).
If he's looking for 50,000 new cases a day....in Florida alone, that will definitely happen with this order.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 09:32 PM - Post#310119
In response to penn nation
I think in this analysis we have to distinguish between conferences such as the Power 5 and the like where a TREMENDOUS amount of their budget is due to FB and the associated TV revenue. That's certainly not the case in the Ivy League so while cancelling fall sports would suck, it's not a big revenue hit.
Here's your hint at the real answer. Harvard announced that it will only have freshmen and students who need to be on campus "to progress academically" on campus during the fall semester and seniors during the spring semester.
Similarly, Princeton announced yesterday that first-year students and juniors will be welcomed to campus for the fall semester, and sophomores and seniors for the spring semester. Most academic instruction will remain online.
Brown University will move to a three-term model for the next academic year. Undergraduates will be required to be on campus for two of the three terms — fall, spring, and summer — but no first-year students will attend the fall term,
It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate that there are not going to be fall sports and, with so many students not on campus, it is unlikely to me that there will be ANY Ivy League sports this year.
THAT IS WHAT REALLY SUCKS!
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 10:12 PM - Post#310120
In response to SteveChop
I expect we have about 12 hours until that announcement is official.
I for one, am not hopeful. What further bothers me about it is the disparity in action taken by schools: Harvard Yale and Princeton are on the extremes in distancing measures taken whereas Cornell is entirely back to campus in the fall. I understand why this is the case, it doesn't take a genius to realize its much easier to contain a situation in Ithaca as it is in Boston, but I will say this:
It's not schools like Cornell that carry clout among Ivy-wide decisions.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 11:03 PM - Post#310121
In response to Quake Show
As Ronald Reagan said about Russia being part of the Evil Axis, so is HYPr the Evil Axis of the Ivy League.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-07-20 11:03 PM - Post#310122
In response to Quake Show
As Ronald Reagan said about Russia being part of the Evil Axis, so is HYPr the Evil Axis of the Ivy League.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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07-07-20 11:16 PM - Post#310123
In response to SteveChop
Because they don’t want to lead their students into a pandemic for the sake our our entertainment. Remember, Harvard led the shutdown. The entire NCAA would soon comply, followed by a large portion of the world.
If Harvard and Princeton are leading again, I would think long and hard, then follow.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-08-20 12:42 AM - Post#310124
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that, yes, schools prove fertile breeding grounds for COVID the question might still remain which is better: students coming back to school or staying at home?
For that I will leave this here: https://people.orie.cornell.edu/pfrazier/COVID_19_...
I study (as part of my computer science curriculum) systems engineering classes and understand the faults within dynamic systems modeling as it pertains to each model and as they are applied elsewhere. So I am not linking this as a "gotcha"-response, because that would be inappropriate. Cornell ≠ Harvard, Ithaca ≠Boston.
That being said, there are some things that are modeled here that can be applied to HYP (and that are not, as a result of their announcement, universally speaking). These are: testing students regularly, monitoring their interactions via phone data, signing them into compacts for which they face penalties for not adhering, grouping students by living-area, etc. These are all practices that the Cornell researches concluded would make college a safer place IF students return rather than thousands of students and faculty spread across the globe without such rigorous procedures. If you are to suggest that HYP is correct in their decision going forward to not let all students back on campus – and leave thousands scattered – you would need to do so on the basis of discounting research against such a move, and discredit the practices that could be applied to those schools and their entire student bodies.
In truth, we will never be able to tell the difference between what would happen in each scenario for Harvard specifically. That's the nature of dynamic systems. However, attaching weight to a decision on the basis of the brand-name it is issued from doesn't always preclude it being the right decision.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32912
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 07:36 AM - Post#310125
In response to Quake Show
The fact remains what I have been saying all along with respect to recruiting---Harvard's brand allows it to do what other schools cannot. Harvard knows the demand for the sheepskin is so high that it can charge over $50K for a clearly diminished experience, while most schools cannot. Indeed, Harvard is extending the time for students to declare for a gap year, while most schools are imploring people not to do so. The college economic model simply does not work for remote classes---no one can justify the cost without the college experience. So the majority of colleges are going to bring in the students because they have to to survive. Harvard need not do so. It's as simple as that---it's very easy to say to follow Harvard, but it is not easy to actually follow Harvard because it can do what no one else can do.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-08-20 07:54 AM - Post#310127
In response to palestra38
Seems like it's more about the financial assistance that Harvard can provide than the brand.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32912
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 08:08 AM - Post#310129
In response to penn nation
Nope---if Harvard stopped all financial assistance today, it would decimate its basketball team, but its freshman class would still have 20X as many applicants as can get in.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-08-20 08:16 AM - Post#310131
In response to palestra38
Not in the covid era if you're not going to be on campus for most or all of the year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32912
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 08:26 AM - Post#310132
In response to penn nation
All I can say is that I strongly disagree. Harvard would fill its class if it told everyone that there were to be 2 years of online courses, but you get the full Harvard degree. Wouldn't necessarily be the same people, but it would have no trouble filling its class.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8351
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 09:22 AM - Post#310133
In response to palestra38
Nope---if Harvard stopped all financial assistance today, it would decimate its basketball team, but its freshman class would still have 20X as many applicants as can get in.
You are probably right about this, but the quality of their class in several dimensions would suffer and the overall quality of their undergraduate education would be even less consistent with their brand than it is today.
That said, the question of whether students are safer on campus or at home is an interesting and complicated one. It also varies considerably by campus. Dartmouth and Cornell clearly have advantages there. It’s not just about the students though and it’s not about safety. The liability question is also unsettled.
Put me in the camp of being skeptical about the possibility of fall and winter sports. I remain optimistic about the Spring only because I choose too.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32912
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 09:49 AM - Post#310134
In response to Streamers
My only point is that Harvard, relatively uniquely among American universities, can afford to be extremely conservative as to the resumption of on-campus life. Many college cannot survive---most of the smaller liberal arts colleges are heading towards an on-campus, hybrid class scheduling running through Thanksgiving.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-08-20 10:18 AM - Post#310135
In response to palestra38
Agreed.
I think it has more to do with the size of H's endowment and ability to extend financial aid than anything else, but we'll agree to disagree on that.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8351
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 10:43 AM - Post#310137
In response to palestra38
I'm actually agreeing with you, just adding some thoughts of my own.
My daughter's school is one of the smaller schools you are referring to that is bringing most of their kids back to campus and delivering a significant piece of the course catalog in person. We are all extremely grateful for that (as long as they can make it last.)
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32912
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 12:23 PM - Post#310139
In response to Streamers
I have a nephew at Emory--they are doing the same thing
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-08-20 04:29 PM - Post#310144
In response to palestra38
Mike Jensen just tweeted that there will be NO IVY SPORTS until at least JANUARY 2021. In other words, not only no fall sports but no winter sports until January - there goes the trip to TCU and Myrtle Beach for the tournament there (and probably at least 2 Big 5 Games). Let's see what other conferences do.
Edited by SteveChop on 07-08-20 04:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-08-20 05:37 PM - Post#310149
In response to SteveChop
Understandable, unfortunate, and not surprising, but disappointing none the less. Let's see what other conferences do and also see if this has any impact on our roster...
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fdiapmf
Masters Student
Posts: 590
Reg: 08-03-05
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07-08-20 05:52 PM - Post#310151
In response to palestra38
Is Penn going to be primarily online for the fall?
Are these colleges, esp HYP doing online to protect the health of their faculty? I'm assuming most of their faculty are in their 50s-60s and their most valuable asset?
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-08-20 06:00 PM - Post#310152
In response to fdiapmf
Here is a copy of the Press Release to be issued by the Ivy League at 6 PM today
Ivy League Outlines Intercollegiate Athletics Plans; No Competition In Fall Semester
PRINCETON, N.J. -- Amidst continuing health and safety concerns due to the global COVID-19 pandemic, the Ivy League Council of Presidents has set in place plans for intercollegiate athletics activity in the upcoming fall semester.
With the safety and well-being of students as their highest priority, Ivy League institutions are implementing campus-wide policies including restrictions on student and staff travel, requirements for social distancing, limits on group gatherings, and regulations for visitors to campus. As athletics is expected to operate consistent with campus policies, it will not be possible for Ivy League teams to participate in intercollegiate athletics competition prior to the end of the fall semester.
Practice and other athletic training opportunities for enrolled student-athletes will be permitted provided they are structured in accordance with each institution’s procedures and applicable state regulations. The Ivy League will also issue guidelines on a phased approach to conditioning and practice activities to allow for interaction among student-athletes and coaches that will begin with limited individual and small group workouts and build to small group practice sessions, if public health conditions permit.
Fall sport student-athletes will not use a season of Ivy League or NCAA eligibility in the fall, whether or not they enroll. Students who wish to pursue competition during a fifth-year will need to work with their institutions in accordance with campus policy to determine their options beyond their current anticipated graduation date.
Local campus policies for the student body regarding return to campus and in-person learning will apply to student-athletes.
A decision on the remaining winter and spring sports competition calendar, and on whether fall sport competition would be feasible in the spring, will be determined at a later date.
The Ivy League Council of Presidents offered the following joint statement:
“As a leadership group, we have a responsibility to make decisions that are in the best interest of the students who attend our institutions, as well as the faculty and staff who work at our schools. These decisions are extremely difficult, particularly when they impact meaningful student-athlete experiences that so many value and cherish.
With the information available to us today regarding the continued spread of the virus, we simply do not believe we can create and maintain an environment for intercollegiate athletic competition that meets our requirements for safety and acceptable levels of risk, consistent with the policies that each of our schools is adopting as part of its reopening plans this fall.
We are entrusted to create and maintain an educational environment that is guided by health and safety considerations. There can be no greater responsibility — and that is the basis for this difficult decision.â€
Ivy League Council of Presidents
Christina Paxson, Brown University
Lee Bollinger, Columbia University
Martha Pollack, Cornell University
Philip Hanlon, Dartmouth College
Lawrence Bacow, Harvard University
Amy Gutmann, University of Pennsylvania
Christopher Eisgruber, Princeton University
Peter Salovey, Yale University
Edited by SteveChop on 07-08-20 06:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jay O
Masters Student
Posts: 547
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-16-09
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07-08-20 06:09 PM - Post#310154
In response to SteveChop
As much as I miss watching sports, this is the right thing to do.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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07-08-20 06:57 PM - Post#310156
In response to penn nation
I'm skeptical about a basketball season too. Watching the difficulty in bringing back pro sports and implementing the right protocols makes the college basketball season feel unlikely. The NCAA cannot safely isolate the league in a DisneyWorld bubble. Testing players prior to games would also be problematic, since the players also need to attend classes and have longer travel times. A potential vaccine seems unlikely to arrive in time to save the season.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-08-20 07:09 PM - Post#310157
In response to Penndemonium
The NCAA cannot safely isolate the league in a DisneyWorld bubble.
And believe you me--that aint no bubble:
https://www.thestreet.com/investing/union-says- dis...
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-08-20 07:19 PM - Post#310160
In response to penn nation
Per Mike Jensen on Twitter:
“ Just got off the phone with Penn AD Grace Calhoun ... they haven't ruled out any Ivy fall sports playing in the spring, all TBD, and the ADs will seek clarification from Ivy presidents about whether teams could play games during the break between the fall and spring semesters.â€
I also am seeing talk in regards to CBB being pushed to a spring-only season to await the progression of the pandemic and a possible vaccine. All is not lost, but I agree with the decision, as much as I’ll miss Palestra games this fall. Unlike keeping students on campus, traveling teams interact with so many people and locales that it’s just too risky. If only it wasn’t such a battle in the US to convince people to wear masks and social distance...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-08-20 07:24 PM - Post#310161
In response to Quake Show
Probably going to charge full price for season tix though right? Ha.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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07-08-20 07:53 PM - Post#310162
In response to PennFan10
Yes, and refuse to give us students free tickets once the 250-mark is reached despite having thousands of empty seats remaining.
Clearly seem interested in both keeping their longtime fans and acquiring new ones.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23572
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-08-20 08:03 PM - Post#310163
In response to Quake Show
Operators are standing by
From a liability perspective this puts pressure on the other conferences to follow suit
Edited by 10Q on 07-08-20 08:31 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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Re: Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-08-20 08:50 PM - Post#310167
In response to 10Q
I hear rumors that the patriot league is about to follow suit
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Ivy League Fall Sports Announcement
07-09-20 03:52 PM - Post#310197
In response to Quake Show
The tweet that sticks with me from a few days after the tournament announcement still holds true now: "imagine fading Harvard." There will not be fall sports anywhere. This isn't really a question anymore. These conferences can bide all the time they want, but it's not going to work.
I do, however, worry about losing a player or two in the interim...
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