palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-15-20 05:19 PM - Post#316754
In response to rbg
Too bad the issue of playing it in the 6 week intersession wasn't raised. That's a ridiculous explanation---if you do a bubble, you don't do it during the regular school year, but even if you did, all classes are virtual. At a minimum, they should have canvassed the players if they wanted to do it rather than try to read their minds.
But Mike was right--this was preordained. No one in his right mind would suggest a regular travel season given what is going on.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-15-20 05:25 PM - Post#316755
In response to rbg
The Ivy League doesn't have a facility in Florida to pull this off, and basketball is not that profitable in the Ivies to incur the expenses. Pro athletes were paid a lot of money to sequester themselves from friends and family. While I feel incredibly badly for the athletes for the loss of their season and the possible loss of eligibility, we do have a human crisis happening and it just wouldn't be right to make college kids cut themselves off from family and/or compromise learning environment for this. Furthermore, it would be one thing to have a bubble for a weekend tournament. But keep in mind that a bubble would have to encompass the entirety of practices, quarantine before games, and possibly quarantine after.
The Ivy League needs to present itself as a thought leader in these matters, and many posters on this board have identified the risks involved. The upside was to salvage playing experiences for few players and to satisfy some interested fans. That's just not nearly enough upside for our particular conference.
Let's consider that power 5 conferences have sent their football players onto the fields, caused players to fear losing their playing status on the team if they sit out, and provided inadequate health safety to prevent the spread of covid-19 for their players and fans. Many have allowed crowded stadiums and fans rushing the field. Some of these same schools have not allowed or required regular students to be on campus. The optics are really terrible. They are asking these athletes to put themselves, their loved ones, and their communities at risk in order to help the school honor their tv contracts for football revenue. I know many athletes want to do that, but it still represents an exploitation of kids. These kids are not in the right place to make the right decisions for broader society - it's been pretty much demonstrated that kids their age are not taking precautions sufficiently - even the simple ones of wearing masks and keeping distance. I don't think the Ivy League presidents could sign on to that. I would have loved to see the players play, but I don't blame the league since our broader society can't seem to control this outbreak.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-15-20 05:52 PM - Post#316756
In response to rbg
As of now, we will be the ONLY division I conference with no basketball. Suggesting it can't be done is just wrong. They didn't want it, which is fine, but don't suggest it wasn't feasible.
And college football is playing 85% of their games and using pre determined protocols and saved bye dates to make up games. That's far from "falling apart"
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-15-20 06:10 PM - Post#316757
In response to PennFan10
I don’t think anyone is suggesting this couldn’t be done. Just that the lower and lower your risk tolerance is for anyone to contract the virus as part of team activities or games, the harder and harder the execution becomes.
We were never going to be a league that focused on the protocols for teams ASSUMING someone would get the virus, but rather we’d want to ensure it was highly unlikely anyone would get it. That other conferences see athletes/staff members get it and just reschedule the game with little focus on the health of the athlete/staff member or anyone they might have passed it to was never going to be the Ivy League’s path.
We’ll have to see how things go with college football... things have worsened significantly over the past two weeks. Hopefully it plateaus here in the teens (two games have already been cancelled for next week though), and they’ll make it through, but if the number of games cancelled makes it into the 20s or higher, continuing will become progressively more and more untenable.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-15-20 08:32 PM - Post#316761
In response to mrjames
All I'll say because I have said it too much already, is that Cornell is a perfect place for a basketball and hockey bubble--their students won't return until February 9 after Thanksgiving. You can play an entire season with every team in that amount of time. Dorms are available and it is a secluded campus with good wifi for virtual classes for the players. It would not be that expensive for a league with the resources of the Ivies. It could be done, but the Ivies just don't really care about sports or the players.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-15-20 08:44 PM - Post#316762
In response to PennFan10
As of now, we will be the ONLY division I conference with no basketball.
There was a time, of course, when the Ivies were the only DI conference to cancel basketball for the 19-20 season as well.
Didn't take too long before others followed suit. I suspect we'll see much the same thing here.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-15-20 10:28 PM - Post#316767
In response to penn nation
UVM and Alabama State just mixed their non-conference slates this evening. Vermont’s decision leaves the Mohegan Sun MTE teetering a bit, I believe, as the massive MTE cancellation carousel continues.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-15-20 10:32 PM - Post#316768
In response to penn nation
As of now, we will be the ONLY division I conference with no basketball.
There was a time, of course, when the Ivies were the only DI conference to cancel basketball for the 19-20 season as well.
Didn't take too long before others followed suit. I suspect we'll see much the same thing here.
This likely won't happen. We won't be alone, but we will end up in the minority. The view outside of the IL is that people need to figure out how to live their lives. Social distancing, frequent testing, and mask wearing a lot more prominent. Widespread shut downs are just not gonna happen.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Cancelled 11-15-20 11:37 PM - Post#316770
In response to mrjames
UVM and Alabama State just mixed their non-conference slates this evening. Vermont’s decision leaves the Mohegan Sun MTE teetering a bit, I believe, as the massive MTE cancellation carousel continues.
Jim Boeheim and someone else on the Orange just got hit with COVID two weeks away from their opening slate, and now all basketball activities on hold there.
Edited by penn nation on 11-15-20 11:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-16-20 01:50 AM - Post#316772
In response to PennFan10
Yes, we are the only conference, and look what's happening nationally...
The Ivies couldn't claim to be protecting students, putting health first, and have a season. Having a sports season while numbers are rising would at a minimum invalidate their rationale for not having classes return to campus.
As of now, we will be the ONLY division I conference with no basketball. Suggesting it can't be done is just wrong. They didn't want it, which is fine, but don't suggest it wasn't feasible.
And college football is playing 85% of their games and using pre determined protocols and saved bye dates to make up games. That's far from "falling apart"
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-16-20 01:54 AM - Post#316773
In response to palestra38
Sure, a bubble could theoretically work, but it's just not practical. How can Cornell not allow students back to campus but allow basketball athletes and staff occupy their campus? Further, schools shut down much of their campus operations if students are not back. It's not easy for them to operate partially open.
The ivies just don't put sports ahead of the broader interests of their other school priorities. They never have, otherwise we would have scholarships for sure.
All I'll say because I have said it too much already, is that Cornell is a perfect place for a basketball and hockey bubble--their students won't return until February 9 after Thanksgiving. You can play an entire season with every team in that amount of time. Dorms are available and it is a secluded campus with good wifi for virtual classes for the players. It would not be that expensive for a league with the resources of the Ivies. It could be done, but the Ivies just don't really care about sports or the players.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-16-20 08:33 AM - Post#316775
In response to Penndemonium
Because the students don't live in a bubble. The smaller schools that have allowed students on campus have strict rules as to leaving campus and quarantining subject to punishment if violated. Cornell apparently believes it cannot police rules like that for a very large school.
While I understand that this just isn't going to happen, everything you say is based on a fiction that we don't already treat athletes much differently than other students. We do. We admit them with academic credentials by which a non-athlete would not be admitted, we give them additional resources and line them up with jobs and contacts that non-athletes just don't readily have done for them. Yes, we don't give athletic scholarships, but we certainly recruit using our financial aid policies to maximize their benefit--something not done for other students.
I see no problem whatsoever with the Ivies taking the long break to set up at Cornell (which would be paid for equally by the schools--it would not be all on Cornell), provide a testing and health regiment and play out a season in 6 weeks (14 games--easily done in that time period--hell, we do it every year with travel) We could be a model for other leagues on how to do it right. But they just don't want to bother, even though it is doable because of faulty views on "appearances."
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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11-16-20 09:15 AM - Post#316776
In response to palestra38
Athletes are treated differently than other students but the disparity is not as great as it is at Power 5 football and basketball schools. The money is the real difference though.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-16-20 02:28 PM - Post#316789
In response to mrjames
Six cancelled FBS games this week by Monday at noon. That brings the number to 31 in the past three weeks, including 15 last week which represented slightly more than 25% of the total games scheduled.
The flipping of unaffected opponents to play each other might end up saving the season, especially if this number scoots past 15 this week and into the 20s.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-16-20 02:43 PM - Post#316790
In response to mrjames
Sounds like NCAA is investigating possibility of an Indy-based Men's tournament. Can't tell from the chatter whether the proposal is for a true or pseudo bubble.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-16-20 02:56 PM - Post#316793
In response to TheLine
I believe Gavitt said "controlled environment" and explicitly not a bubble.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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11-16-20 03:13 PM - Post#316800
In response to palestra38
"Priorities", not "appearances."
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andybech
Freshman
Posts: 80
Reg: 02-15-20
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11-16-20 03:16 PM - Post#316801
In response to mrjames
Bringing 68 teams from all around the country to one location to play a basketball tournament? Sounds like the Sturgis motorcycle rally with even fewer protections since everything will be indoors.
I think the reality is that we will be able to have these tournaments if distribution of the vaccine is far enough along in March for the teams to take it (and they should not be at the front of the line ahead of first line workers and more vulnerable populations).
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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Cancelled 11-16-20 03:26 PM - Post#316805
In response to palestra38
It's quite a different thing to treat athletes differently for admissions, where you can argue that athletes add to the diversity and quality of the student population. It's a VERY different thing to treat them differently on a health related matter like this and expose the players and community to a different risks. Students don't live in a bubble, but they certainly aren't encouraged and supported by the schools to spend time sweating and breathing heavily on people from other schools and returning to campus (or not for some schools).
I guess it is a moot point.
Because the students don't live in a bubble. The smaller schools that have allowed students on campus have strict rules as to leaving campus and quarantining subject to punishment if violated. Cornell apparently believes it cannot police rules like that for a very large school.
While I understand that this just isn't going to happen, everything you say is based on a fiction that we don't already treat athletes much differently than other students. We do. We admit them with academic credentials by which a non-athlete would not be admitted, we give them additional resources and line them up with jobs and contacts that non-athletes just don't readily have done for them. Yes, we don't give athletic scholarships, but we certainly recruit using our financial aid policies to maximize their benefit--something not done for other students.
I see no problem whatsoever with the Ivies taking the long break to set up at Cornell (which would be paid for equally by the schools--it would not be all on Cornell), provide a testing and health regiment and play out a season in 6 weeks (14 games--easily done in that time period--hell, we do it every year with travel) We could be a model for other leagues on how to do it right. But they just don't want to bother, even though it is doable because of faulty views on "appearances."
Edited by Penndemonium on 11-16-20 03:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-20 06:09 PM - Post#316987
In response to mrjames
Now up to 13 cancelled this week as of this moment. College football is teetering on the edge...
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