bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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12-30-20 12:59 PM - Post#318332
In response to mrjames
It is always interesting how some people are way off base if they have a different opinion than someone else. There are legitimately different points of view on this topic.
Reality is that teams are playing BB in the Northeast, California and other hot spots across the country and games are being played. Reality is that some coaches disagree that games should be played while there are plenty of others who have a different point of view. IL administrators have taken a contrarian view than all other conferences in the country and that is their right.
I believe that point made by several people is that the IL could have taken a different approach and give it the "old college try".
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-30-20 01:18 PM - Post#318333
In response to mrjames
a lot of the arguments presented above are either entirely wrong or somewhat misleading.
But the blame being thrown around here is wildly off base, sadly.
Since you were responding to my post, I'd like to know what, if anything, I have said that is "entirely wrong" "somewhat misleading" or "wildly off base"?
I stand by my comments.
Bradley, well put. There is some kind of massive disconnect that most of the colleges in the country are figuring out how to keep doing life while protecting their students, staff, etc and what the Ivy League has decided. Hundreds of non power 5 schools including D3 that are figuring out how to do sports and college life amidst a brutal pandemic.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 01:33 PM - Post#318334
In response to rbg
Even with the incredibly positive news of multiple successful vaccines being distributed, there is still a huge amount of bad news.
Infections, hospitalizations, and ICU use remain dangerously high. Despite being told to stay home, US travel was over 1 million per day around the holidays. Vaccine rollout is slower than expected. A new variant, which is more transmissible (if not more lethal), is in the US.
Since experts were warning about the increasing winter numbers and their effects on the healthcare system months ago, it is understandable that the IL presidents made the decision to cancel the season.
For those on this message board (including me) that felt that a complete or semi-permeable short-season bubble was the most (or only) legitimate option to consider, I just wish that the Executive Director had a more detailed response why the league & presidents did not give it serious consideration and why they felt it was not a feasible option.
Looking at where things stand at the end of December, the sports world may again be moving in direction of the IL presidents. The difference is that these actions are coming from the players and coaches worried about the safety of teams, staff & communities, instead of their administrators.
Everton vs Manchester City Premier League match postponed on 12/28. Tottenham vs Fulham match postponed on 12/30 (prior to these games only 1 other Premier League match had been postponed). New West Bromwich Albion manager Sam Allardyce is the first to publicly call for a pause in the season due to the increase in cases and the new variant in the UK.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/30/football/p remier-le...
SMU women's basketball shuts down for season on 12/29.
Duke women's basketball shuts down for season on 12/25. According to information in the Raleigh News & Observer, the Duke players, who were being tested every day, decided to end the season after their request that their opponents be tested daily was not granted by the ACC (which tests three times per week).
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basket ball/sto...
Chicago State men's basketball decides to end season on 12/23
Coach K questions why college basketball is playing during the pandemic on 12/8. The Duke men's team cancels the rest of its non-conference schedule on 12/10.
Pitt's Jeff Capel also questions playing while in a pandemic on 12/7. He ends up testing positive for covid a week ago - while not being hospitalized, Capel says he had a rough experience.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/2020/12/2 ...
(Perhaps if/when more information is provided by the University of Florida and/or Keyontae Johnson about his reported acute myocarditis and the clearance protocol given to him by the UF athletic department, more players or teams will reconsider their earlier decisions.)
Edited by rbg on 12-30-20 01:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 01:54 PM - Post#318335
In response to rbg
You are rightly identifying exceptions that would support the IL Presidents decision but there is the opposite view based on 80% of games actually being played over the past several days when some people stated that BB would be shutdown 30 days ago.
At the end of the day, reality is reality. Theory is theory and opinions are opinions.
Time will tell.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21225
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 02:53 PM - Post#318338
In response to bradley
This is about college football, not basketball, but is a sober read all the same.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/30/magazine/c olleg...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 02:57 PM - Post#318339
In response to bradley
In the mean time 2020 data shows that out of 1.2B airline passengers and over 16M flights, a total of 44 people contracted Covid from flying. 44 out of 1.2B! Every NFL game has been played. NBA basketball is in full swing. D3 (non revenue) is starting to play basketball in January, etc, etc, etc.
But we can't figure out how to play sports at Ivy League schools because it's not safe? Something doesn't jive.
This quote:
“We spent countless hours working with our athletic directors and coaches since March—looking at schedules, looking at protocols, looking at ways we can conduct athletic competition. That included looking at different mitigation strategies for travel. We spent an inordinate amount of time [and presented] presidents with concepts and frameworks. They just felt like that would be inconsistent with campus policies. It was not a difficult decision.â€
Says it all to me. The AD's, coaches and staff looked at every avenue and presented them to the Presidents and they said "...that would be inconsistent with campus policies. It was not a difficult decision"
That's not considering anything. That's dismissive of the work those AD's and coaches did to create a safe solution. It ignores the science. Look this is a deadly disease to about 1% of the population and we all have to take great care to protect the most vulnerable, but this is a solvable problem they chose not to solve.
Basketball, football,etc is not shutting down. It didn't shut down in November or December (except for us) and it wont' shut down again. We know so much more now than we did in March.
Edited by PennFan10 on 12-30-20 02:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 03:23 PM - Post#318340
In response to penn nation
The NYT article from earlier this afternoon, Was the College Football Season Worth It?, is a long form article that focuses on the Big Ten, the Ohio State AD & newly installed President (former SUNY Chancellor) and Big 10 Commissioner (former Penn MBB player Kevin Warren). Given its length, it will probably be in this weekend's NYT Magazine section.
It is a very good article. Since most of the people interviewed were on the side that favored finding a way to play Big 10 football, it would have been a better article if he had interviewed people who didn't want to play or any people (student, athlete, family) that had a change of heart after the season began.
Spoiler alert -
Pros for playing:
TV and playoff money for athletic departments that had major losses and cut programs due to covid.
Supporting players and their families that wanted the games to be played
Providing an outlet to improve the emotional health of students and communities that support the schools/teams
Cons for playing:
Increased infections to players and staff despite strong protocols
Potentially jeopardizing the long term health of players and staff
Increased infections to students and people in the community (in states that already had high numbers) who gathered in sizable groups to watch the games on TV
Edited by rbg on 12-30-20 03:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21225
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 04:27 PM - Post#318342
In response to rbg
The author of the article was less than sanguine in assessing whether it was all "worth it".
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-30-20 04:37 PM - Post#318343
In response to PennFan10
First, let’s start with this notion that the Ivy League didn’t try. It tried. It had its teams engaging in athletic activities, and the issue was that they couldn’t consistently stick in higher phases and kept getting bumped back down to phase zero. As far as I understand it, it was that inability to maintain in-person activities for any extended period of time without having an outbreak that was the final straw that broke the back of moving forward with a 20-21 season.
Second - let’s address this “everyone’s moving forward with their seasons†argument. It’s misleading. Yes. College football teams have made it to the finish line, but many that could opted out of bowl games, others had too many positive tests to move forward with bowl games and at certain points in the season roughly a third of football games were being cancelled per week. College basketball has had a similarly rough and bizarre start not including what we might ultimately find out about Keyontae. Yes, these seasons have moved forward, but not without a ton of cancelled games and positive student athletes, something that the Ivies wouldn’t have powered through - so the season wouldn’t have lasted long even if the league “gave it the old college try,†as has been asked.
Finally, we’ll see what happens with non-Power 5 basketball and how that ultimately unfolds, but the Power 5 conference teams are merely playing to be good partners to get their full TV contracts. It’s why ACC teams opted out of the bowls - their job fulfilling the media contract was done at the end of the regular season. The student athletes on those teams voted not to play in the bowl games because they were just worn out from such a crazy season.
I’m not objecting to the notion that there can be differing opinions on the issue of whether to play or not. I’m objecting to the notion that the presidents wouldn’t have played or even considered playing no matter what. If Ivy teams had been able to stay in higher phases consistently, cases nationally stayed really low and we didn’t have a third of football games wiped out weekly, things might have turned out differently. All of those worked massively against us right when this decision had to be made. There’s no denying that the assumption the presidents were deadset against playing this year was a reasonable conclusion to draw based on the past behavior of that group, but it’s misplaced in this case.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-30-20 05:33 PM - Post#318345
In response to mrjames
I think the “powering through†point is a good one. Two keys for college football and basketball (and MLB and the NFL) are a plan for what to do when positive tests occur and flexibility. Fundamental to both of those keys is a certain amount of comfort with players testing positive. Even if a bubble were feasible, I suspect there would still be positive tests at some point. I am not sure the Ivy presidents were willing to roll with that, and I think that is a perfectly reasonable decision.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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12-30-20 06:17 PM - Post#318348
In response to SomeGuy
Powering thru is exactly what every teams whether collegiate or professional have been doing. Powering thru can be a wonderful learning experience as adversity is what all of us face at sometime during our lives. A young man that we know has experienced the challenge of playing football this year but he is so pleased that he hung in there and finished their season and career today. He also had the thrill of experiencing Senior Day albeit an unusual one.
I am sure that many IL players would love to be on the court right now.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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12-30-20 07:49 PM - Post#318350
In response to SomeGuy
For an interesting view of what it was like to be an athlete and coach during COVID, the postgame interview captured by YouTube of 3 Wake Forest football players and Coach Clawson after their loss to Wisconsin today says a whole lot.
The interviews provide some good perspective as to the pros and cons of playing through the adversity of COVID. 3 RS Seniors are coming back to play next year for some unfinished business. It might provide some good perspective as to what young men learn in dealing with adversity.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-30-20 08:11 PM - Post#318351
In response to bradley
I don't think we are fans of a league that would refer to playing through a pandemic as simply "adversity."
Detroit Mercy just announced that they're taking a mental health break. No positive tests, just dealing with this season has been hard on the players. Is that just "adversity" they should be playing through?
I get that everyone wanted to see Ivy hoops this year, and that it's angering to see other sports and leagues moving forward while the Ivy doesn't. To some extent that feeling is common in this pandemic (why do I have to follow the rules and not go to the gym, when I see all these people at my gym on Instagram all the time?). But the result of that feeling shouldn't be to make self-serving claims like "maybe some adversity would be good for them," when what you're really saying is "if they or their teammates get COVID they'll be fine and it'll teach them a lesson how to overcome obstacles."
This is a pandemic. Let's get some perspective. Stop blaming the presidents for making an entirely reasonable decision.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21225
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-30-20 09:36 PM - Post#318352
In response to mrjames
But the result of that feeling shouldn't be to make self-serving claims like "maybe some adversity would be good for them," when what you're really saying is "if they or their teammates get COVID they'll be fine and it'll teach them a lesson how to overcome obstacles."
This is a pandemic. Let's get some perspective.
Indeed. Especially when the disparities in receiving proper care, medicines, hospitalization, etc. are mirroring the larger disparities in this country.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-30-20 11:12 PM - Post#318354
In response to penn nation
NY Times Editorial Board looks at the problems of the college football season and calls on college administrators & the NCAA to delay the basketball season for the health & welfare of the players and their communities.
Don't Let The Games Begin
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/30/opinion/co llege...
Edited by rbg on 12-30-20 11:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-31-20 01:42 PM - Post#318363
In response to mrjames
Your numbers are quite exaggerated MrJ. There were a couple of weeks where as many as a third of the games were cancelled (that's the high end of a couple of weeks) and there were many more weeks where a majority of the games got played. Do you know the percentage of games played vs cancelled? Do you know the number of positive tests vs negative tests in college sports? I know it's extremely low for many teams. For a self proclaimed empiricist you seem to want to highlight the exceptions and one off's quite a bit.
Also, there are literally HUNDREDS of non power 5 schools playing sports and operating with careful considerations to the athletes. So this is NOT a pandemic exclusive to those beholden to TV contracts.
The college presidents did not really try in my opinion. At least not with any thought they might continue. Certainly not the way most have tried.
This quote from Robin Harris is telling:
"They [the college presidents] just felt like that would be inconsistent with campus policies. It was not a difficult decision."
That's a very dismissive quote and supports what I believe happened. The IL Presidents don't have a crystal ball into the future that hundreds of other college presidents (mostly non power 5) don't have. They took the easy path out and didn't really care. Nothing you have said has changed my opinion of that.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1348
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-31-20 03:26 PM - Post#318367
In response to PennFan10
In the mean time 2020 data shows that out of 1.2B airline passengers and over 16M flights, a total of 44 people contracted Covid from flying. 44 out of 1.2B!
This supposed stat has as much credence as the claim that there were millions of fraudulent votes.
It's a stat put out by IALTA, the trade association of airlines. The same airlines that promised strict covid rules for spacing of passengers at the same time they were actually packing them in.
I know of several people who believe they contracted it from air travel. Minutes ago I was told by an acquaintance that one of their employees became sick after likely getting it from visiting grandparents who flew over the holiday.
There is a documented incident of 59 people on a single flight (in Ireland) getting it: https://www.dw.com/en/how-safe-is-air-tr avel-durin...
Here is a more detailed assessment:
https://www.vox.com/21525068/covid-19-air plane-ris...
And: "Flying involves not only sitting on an airplane, but spending time in transit to and from the airport; queuing for check-in, emigration and security at the departure airport; and queuing for possible health checks, immigration, luggage collection and customs at the arrival airport, possibly in another country."
I am not saying the IL should shut down forever. They need to monitor developments and adjust as necessary. While I prefer the institutions be safer rather than sorry when it comes to lives of others, and others may have a different risk tolerance than I do, garbage stats do not help that process.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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12-31-20 03:42 PM - Post#318368
In response to PennFan10
Be prepared for character assassination if you have a different point of view as there is only one answer for some -- 'the right one". Examples are used as confirmation to support one's point of view rather than being what they are - examples.
At the end of the day, the percentage of games played takes out quite a bit of the theoretical arguments or so called fact arguments that can be made by both sides on the issue.
The IL Presidents may be right or maybe not -- time will tell.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-31-20 03:47 PM - Post#318369
In response to PennFan10
Well, to be clear, I primarily post here for the benefit of folks that read a lot more than they post to ensure that they have the best info I can provide. I'm not really focused on changing your mind, which seems pretty made up.
In college football, it really was a tale of two seasons. In Sept and Oct, when cases were relatively low nationally and spikes were isolated to particular regions of the country, very few games were cancelled each week. It did look like the worst fears were overblown. This also coincided with the timeframe when it looked like winter and spring sports would happen for the Ivy League. Week 10 (the start of November) is when things turned HARD - it was the first week that double-digit games had to be postponed or cancelled, and there would be double-digit postponements or cancellations every week thereafter.
It's hard to explicitly pinpoint a percentage of games scheduled, because in the later weeks and for bowl games, conferences just stopped rescheduling games that teams didn't want to play and bowls were cancelled that teams didn't want to attend. There were more than 40 bowls scheduled for 2020, and it looks like 26 will end up getting played.
So, yes, if you look at the season as a whole, 1/3rd is high. If you look at the part of the season that occurred while the country was spiking, it's a pretty good estimate.
While there are many non-Power 5 schools playing winter sports, I-AA, II and III cancelled football and the other fall championships. The I-AA teams that did play a minimal number of games did so to get the big $$$ they could to play the non-conf games that still existed against I-A competition. We'll see how things go in winter competition, but it's hardly clear to this point that the lower divisions will be successful in completing a season.
What I can say is this... there were legitimate beliefs, up until the final week or so prior to the decision, that the league would go forward with basically five or six teams and leave Harvard and Yale (and maybe Princeton) in the dust. That would have been a pretty radical move for the league, and I firmly believe that it wasn't just all blowing smoke (it would have been a crazy thing to suggest if it wasn't legitimately being discussed). Folks around the league have a pretty sober view of what the presidents will and won't allow, but there were legitimately differing views on this point. There wouldn't have been if this were something preordained from day one.
So, again, I'd suggest folks save their "anti-president" rants for the unnecessarily dumb, self-defeating stuff they actually do, rather than their decisions surrounding a pandemic.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32849
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-31-20 07:45 PM - Post#318378
In response to mrjames
Now please tell us why a bubble at Cornell was never a serious consideration and I'll never mention it again. I agree (and always have) that playing a regular season with travel was insane. But we could have done a bubble for basketball and hockey (men's and women's) and it would have worked. And we would have shown everyone how it's done
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