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Username Post: NCAA: Beginning of the End?        (Topic#25380)
dperry 
PhD Student
Posts: 1800
dperry
Loc: Oreland, PA
Reg: 11-24-04
07-24-21 09:39 PM - Post#325485    

Well, I was going to wait a while longer for my grand return to the board, but the press of events moves me to post earlier. As P38 noted on the off-topic board, Texas and Oklahoma want to leave the Big 12 for the SEC. There are already rumors that Clemson, Florida St., Michigan, and Ohio State want to join them. On the other hand, given that the 'Horns and Sooners would owe big penalties for leaving the Big 12 early, and forces are marshalling in the Texas legislature to block the move, maybe the SEC takes OK St., Texas Tech, TCU, and Baylor instead to buy off all concerned. In any case, it seems very likely that we are in for another round of conference musical chairs: Kansas is already allegedly chatting up the Increasingly Innumerate Alliance of Mostly Midwestern Universities. I have been predicting for some time that the difference in interests between the big-time and small-time programs and the tension between the amateur ideal and the pressures of increasing revenue were going to tear the NCAA apart as soon as the big-time schools felt confident enough to go on their own. Between this news, the NIL ruling (which may well be applied to other aspects of the athlete-college relationship), and the expansion of the football playoffs, it's become clear that we are moving towards an at least quasi-professional model of college sports, that the big teams are going to need more money to stay competitive, and that they are increasingly willing to act independently from the NCAA. I definitely think we are going to see a major reconstruction of college sports within the decade, and unfortunately, I don't think the Ivies will be in the top level of basketball when that happens. My hope is that there will be individual bodies for each sport, and we will be able to continue in the upper echelon in those sports where we are competitive (hockey, lacrosse, etc.), but if not, I then have to question the future of Ivy athletics in general. We are already in a dangerous situation, with an increasing amount of resources and admission spots being devoted to sports despite increasing lack of interest from the institutions as a whole. If we get dropped to a lower level in all sports, I have to wonder if there won't be a lot of pressure on administrations to drop or at least severely curtail sports. I think we need to enjoy every season of DI hoops we have from now on out, because there's no guarantee it will continue for a whole lot longer.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!"


 
Condor 
PhD Student
Posts: 1810

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
07-25-21 09:13 AM - Post#325488    
    In response to dperry

There are many moving parts to this discussion. However, let’s agree on the following:

1) The current realignment is all being driven by football.
2) The NIL will allow all college athletes to monetize their sports celebrity. (Ok, I might be the only one who believes this)
3) The Ivy League already gives preferential treatment for admissions to legacies, the wealthy, the famous, and athletes.
4) The Ivy League will continue to limit its scholarships to financial need.

Unless the member colleges of the Power conferences see it in their interest to eliminate the smaller schools from their Basketball spectrum, then I do not see things changing that much for college basketball. The success of March Madness only serves to limit change. Since football may steal some of the NIL money from basketball, it might even help the smaller conference teams.

As for the Ivy League, I doubt they proactively change anything. Provided the Ivy League can continue to assuage the forces against athletics by foregoing merit scholarships, I think they will ignore any money generated outside their control. After all, Harvard is paying Amaker a hefty sum through outside funding, and no one had a problem with YoY o Ma’s or Jodie Foster’s outside earnings. Hypocrisy has always been a part of the Ivy tradition. Unless you believe that the Power schools will squeeze out the non-Power schools in basketball, then the NIL might actually benefit the Ivy League with realignment a non-factor.


 
Stuart Suss 
PhD Student
Posts: 1300

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
07-25-21 11:27 AM - Post#325491    
    In response to Condor

The legal status of Ivy League financial aid policies will soon be front and center in the discussion of the role of sports on the college campus.

This article, now appearing at Ivy Hoops Online, arose from email exchanges between Stuart Suss, Howard Gensler, and the two authors of the article, Alan Cotler and Robert Litan.

For those who are too young to remember him, Alan Cotler was a key sub on the 1971 Penn basketball team and a starter on the 1972 team, both of which advanced to the Eastern Regional finals. Bob was a classmate of Alan in Penn's Class of 1972. Bob has held many prestigious positions, the two most relevant being as a manager of the Penn freshman basketball team, and as the Chief of the Antitrust Division of the Justice Department under President Clinton. Their impressive biographies are set forth in full at the end of the article.

Bob Litan has also written a political advocacy article, appearing in The New Republic, addressing Ivy League financial aid policies beyond their impact on athletes.


 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4151

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
07-25-21 01:24 PM - Post#325492    
    In response to Stuart Suss

Stu - thanks for posting this. From my standpoint it helped me understand that events may cause the Ivy League to pick it’ s collective head out of the sand when it comes to athletic scholarships.

 
Condor 
PhD Student
Posts: 1810

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
07-26-21 09:01 AM - Post#325500    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Ok, scratch limiting scholarships limited to financial need as a given.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 5824
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
08-06-21 02:05 PM - Post#325826    
    In response to Stuart Suss

See today's Inquirer writeup

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 27699

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
08-07-21 09:45 AM - Post#325834    
    In response to Streamers

I laughed at this comment to the article:


'I was agreeing with Cotler until I saw that Mets hat. 90-47"

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 5824
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
08-07-21 01:46 PM - Post#325836    
    In response to palestra38

I don't read the comments but that Mets hat did not go unnoticed. I love the (largely wrong) 2007 comparisons going on around here.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 2735

Reg: 10-20-14
09-17-21 09:25 AM - Post#326708    
    In response to Streamers

Just posted at Sports Illustrated - Without Scholarships, Ivy League Athletes See NIL Deals As Leveling the Playing Field

- The price tag for attending one of the Ancient Eight varies slightly from school to school, but annual tuition typically falls between $50,000 and $60,000, with an additional $20,000 charged for housing, dining, books and other fees. Penn men’s basketball player Lucas Monroe says that he and most of his teammates were able to attend the college “because of the financial aid,” which would make a lucrative sponsorship even more valuable to them.

“If I was able to get a nice NIL deal where I was able to put some money in my pocket, it probably wouldn’t go entirely toward shoes and clothes and nice stuff. I would definitely use it for books, rent … meal plans, all that stuff,” he says. “I think a lot of my teammates would say the same thing. They would definitely use it for more functional purposes and more necessities.” -

- The league set a few general guidelines that may be altered after reevaluation in the spring, but for now, Harris says athletes at the eight schools have the freedom to navigate their new ventures.

“Our policy is that there should be no recruiting inducements. This is not, ‘You only receive this opportunity if you come to school X.’ That would not be allowed,” she says, adding that the universities have no involvement in the endorsements beyond athletes’ reporting their deals to their respective schools’ compliance offices.

“Like any other student, if our student-athletes have the wherewithal and the ability to develop an opportunity, they should be able to do so. But the institution, our coaches, our athletic staff and the university itself are not going to be involved in finding those opportunities or arranging them.” -

- Others with fewer than 10,000 followers have found success by reaching out to brands they like or creating their own opportunities.

Monroe hosted a youth basketball camp this summer in Hatboro, Pa., and advertised a vintage clothing brand on Instagram in exchange for free T-shirts. His teammate Max Lorca-Lloyd launched a clothing collection with PWRFWD, an athlete-to-consumer marketplace, in August, and Brown baseball player Ryan Marra negotiated deals with equipment companies like LeftySwag Bats and Stadium Custom Kicks.

Compensation in those deals came in the form of free products, commission earned off each sale from specific links and discount codes rather than direct payments simply for posting, but many of the athletes are hopeful the NIL revolution can bring about more widespread changes in the conference, like the creation of athletic scholarships and a new appeal for recruits who may have previously overlooked the Ivies in favor of Power 5 schools. -

- Deals from the deep pockets of those connections—alumni, donors and boosters—could “trickle down to the recruiting trail in the near future,” as Heitner puts it, now that there is a new way to funnel resources directly to the athletes, but he doesn’t expect that to dramatically shake up the hierarchy of the conferences. Instead, he hypothesizes that “within the Ivy League there may be some competitive battles between the schools as to what each school is able to command on behalf of its athletes.”

If the NIL deals add more heat to the rivalries between the universities, Yale football coach Tony Reno, director of recruiting Jake Pelletier and the rest of the coaching staff are ready. -

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2244

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
09-17-21 12:13 PM - Post#326714    
    In response to rbg

Just received an email from Brown Athletics - masks required at all athletic events: indoor and outdoor.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3647

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
09-17-21 04:08 PM - Post#326717    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

OK-- just to because I'm a polemicist at heart, I'm going to go out on a limb and ask this:

Why should anybody think this new policy will enable Ivy League schools to recruit more effectively versus scholarship schools? Athletes will be able to get NIL deals regardless of where they end up, so it's just a wash.

Somebody please convince me I'm wrong.

 
Condor 
PhD Student
Posts: 1810

Reg: 11-21-04
09-17-21 04:19 PM - Post#326718    
    In response to Silver Maple

The Ivy's have the wealthiest alumni. Whether they care about basketball is another matter.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1015
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
09-17-21 04:23 PM - Post#326719    
    In response to Condor

I have a tough time believing ivy sports fans will match the inducements to be thrown by big school sports-crazed alums. Just not our League MO.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 2735

Reg: 10-20-14
Re: NCAA: Beginning of the End?
10-01-21 12:46 PM - Post#326864    
    In response to Stuart Suss

Today's Yale Daily News has an article on the letter from Alan Cotler and Robert Litan.

- “All Ivy schools should compete for the students’ services and unique skills, just as the reasoning of the Supreme Court’s decision in Alston has recognized,” the letter reads. “This means terminating the Ivy League’s policy that prevents this outcome.”

The Ivy League has had a congressional exemption from antitrust law since 1994, allowing Ancient Eight schools to unilaterally ban merit-based scholarships. But that exemption is up for congressional review and renewal for the fourth time in September 2022. The implications extend beyond the athletic fields, with the potential for merit-based scholarships on academic grounds as well. -

- The immediate, narrow conclusion of the Supreme Court’s decision in Alston was outlined by law professor George Priest ’69 in an essay published in the Harvard Journal of Sports and Entertainment Law this year. Priest wrote that “through antitrust litigation, the Supreme Court’s ruling in NCAA v. Alston forced the NCAA to allow universities to provide greater compensation to their most productive athletes, such as scholarships for graduate study, payment for tutors.”

Priest, as well as Cotler and Litan, note that the most significant aspect of the Alston ruling is the concurring opinion by Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh ’87 LAW ’90, which reveals the impact the decision could have on Ivy League athletics.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate,” Kavanaugh wrote. “And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.” -

- According to Priest, the agreement by Ivy League universities is “now such an obvious violation” of antitrust law.

“If this happened in any other industry, the leaders of the industry who agree to this will go to jail,” Priest said. “So let’s say [all] restaurants in New Haven agreed ‘We don’t want to pay our chefs [and] we’re going to have amateur chefs only,’ they go to jail.”

However, Priest says that an expiration of the exemption will not compel Ivy League members to give athletic scholarships. But it may make illegal a group in which all members agree not to pay their athletes, which the Ivy League currently is. -

- For Priest, there could be significant implications if just one of the Ancient Eight institutions were to begin offering merit-based scholarships.

“[If] Yale keeps its schedule of playing against these other teams, Harvard, Cornell, Brown, Penn, Columbia, they can still do that. But if Harvard is paying for its athletes, [and Yale isn’t], Yale’s just gonna keep losing,” Priest said. “And that’s why I think it’s going to be ultimately fatal for the Ivy League.” -



 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3647

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
10-01-21 01:32 PM - Post#326867    
    In response to rbg

It might be fatal, but it might also not. Hopefully it will force the universities to do something they have avoided for quite awhile-- take a hard look at what the purpose of intercollegiate athletics should be for Ivy League institutions. Where a thoughtful, honest conversation might lead is anybody's guess. It might lead to offering scholarships and trying to compete at the highest levels of college sports. It also might mean to deemphasizing intercollegiate sports, perhaps even dropping down to division 3. Or it might lead to other outcomes I haven't thought of.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3956

Reg: 02-04-06
10-04-21 02:41 PM - Post#326915    
    In response to Silver Maple

Most likely is a continued exemption of some sort.

 
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