Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-11-21 03:08 AM - Post#328091
It was great to see the team finally, even though we got crushed. I may be guilty of perpetual optimism, but I saw some positives.
First, our team plays hard. They never stopped competing. They were up against one of the longest and fastest teams we've faced. Our team was certainly finding their way still.
Some player notes
- Dingle looked strong, composed and confidently hit some long threes. He has added some skills to his ball-handling, especially his low dribble crossover. That said, he had some TOs when trying to be our ballhandler. He can navigate around a player, but seems to have less control at full speed. After not hearing much about him, he looks good.
- Williams actually looks to me like Deron Williams physically, but maybe not yet with the shot. He seems to be a good ballhandler, but I can't tell if he will hold up under a press. He is physical and can post up smaller players. He didn't look explosive fast (like his HS videos), but he didn't look slow. It is great to see him out there.
- Jonah Charles - definitely an impact player and potential long term starter. He clearly belongs in the rotation. He can shoot and doesn't appear overwhelmed.
- Mike Wang - He actually looked pretty good to me, despite a ton of mistakes. He is modestly slimmer, stronger, and faster. That is just enough for him to handle the ball more and try to back his man down. Unfortunately, that resulted in a bunch of TOs. Still, he can play. I don't remember him taking threes, though.
- MLL - He actually looked better than I expected. He was in the mix defensively and wasn't pushed around that bad against a very athletic team. He seems quite a bit stronger than before and not as awkward. He can run the floor and finish some lobs. His free throws looked a bit scary, but he mostly hit them.
- Slajchert - He is our only pure point, and he didn't shoot well at all. He can penetrate, but doesn't have an easy time with what to do with it from there. He got run over a few times defensively.
- Monroe - he is always active and working. That said, he doesn't have any specialized skill on offense. His effort and intensity are great, but I saw him get burned on defense several times. Perhaps he had some of the toughest assignments.
- Others - George Smith looked surprisingly good out there. He might belong in the rotation. Moshkovitz looked decent out there in spurts. He seems to be able to pass out of the high post to the wings, which fits into the Penn offense well. Spinoso made a terrible double dribble, but after that looked OK. It is too early for Larson to be out there against major conference teams.
The team passes well and has some shooters. They don't have a lot of ball handling to resist the type of pressure Fl State brings. Our positionless starting guards looked very capable, but we still need a confident primary ball handler. All 3 of our guards seem to have wing skills.
The team played well for about 15 minutes of the first half. They held their own. Then turnovers started to kill them. Dingle had 2 bad ones in a row. Then Wang had a few. Then everyone turned it over.
This will be a fun, exciting, deep, and sometimes maddening team to watch this year!
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-11-21 03:10 AM - Post#328092
In response to Penndemonium
BTW, you can watch the game on replay already on ESPN+
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 08:41 AM - Post#328094
In response to Penndemonium
On Monroe, yes, there seemed to be quite a bit of offense/defense substituting where he was the defense and Dingle or Slajchert was the offense. So I am guessing Monroe had the toughest assignments out there.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Fl State Notes
11-11-21 09:09 AM - Post#328096
In response to SomeGuy
I missed the game so just reacting to the box score.
- 105 points against - defense optional?
- Slacker 8-8 on FTs, more of that please.
- Any news on Martz? Hoping we're not back to news blackout on injuries.
Edited by TheLine on 11-11-21 09:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 09:10 AM - Post#328097
In response to SomeGuy
Don't know if we will face another team as strangling on defense as Florida State, but it's very good training for a team that hasn't played together in 2 years. It will be interesting to see the contrast against Bucknell, a team we should be able to pressure.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 09:57 AM - Post#328099
In response to Penndemonium
- Mike Wang - He actually looked pretty good to me, despite a ton of mistakes. He is modestly slimmer, stronger, and faster. That is just enough for him to handle the ball more and try to back his man down. Unfortunately, that resulted in a bunch of TOs. Still, he can play. I don't remember him taking threes, though.
I generally agree with your observations despite significant reservations regarding Michael Wang. He stood out to me as the Quaker who was most out of his element on the court last night. He seemed a beat slow both physically and mentally. Lack of footspeed and court awareness killed him and resulted in extended bench time in the second half. While I did see some positives with others, which you pointed out, I left feeling Wang was the biggest disappointment last night.
I intend to rewatch the game later without the emotional reactions of real time, so perhaps I'll reevaluate some things. At this point, I fear Wang's freshman year flash may remain the high point of his career.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 10:07 AM - Post#328100
In response to palestra38
There is always an effort to find silver linings after a game like this, not sure I saw any beyond Dingle’s performance. He was the only Penn player who looked like he belonged out there. In some ways, this was worse than it looked in that our guys made some ridiculous 3’s and shot FTs better than we have come to expect. Slajchert is going to be very effective when hr matures. Charles can flat out shoot it. MLL will be a force in the paint. Jelani will post Ivy players up. Monroe is an excellent defensive player and rebounder. Moshko will infuriate opponents like Yale forwards bother us. SD sees something in Smith I don’t. Bryce will be helpful depth. Spinoso has a big upside. Larson is a project. We have seen Martz’s upside as well as Wang’s.
FSU was way better than I thought they would be. Hamilton has really coached these guys up. Only flaw I saw was when Penn went zone, but that did not last long. They are likely the best team we see all year. We actually saw Penn’s vulnerabilities in the scrimmage, specifically with regard to pressure defense and lack of ball movement in the half court offense. These were really exposed last night.
This team is deep and talented enough to win the Ivy, but there is still much work to do.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 10:16 AM - Post#328102
In response to TheLine
- 105 points against - defense optional?
We really couldn't guard anyone--always a step slow. As a result, FSU pretty much could choose to shoot any shot it wanted, especially from 3 where they had wide open looks all night long. They weren't making any in the first half, so the score remained close for a while.
Team rebounding was a very serious flaw last night (contending with holding onto the ball as the top one overall). FSU nearly had as many offensive rebounds as we had total rebounds. No-one on our team could handle Osborne.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-11-21 10:18 AM - Post#328103
In response to Streamers
that game was complete garbage. they looked like a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds who hadn't played in 3 years...
there are no silver linings, there is only the knowledge that was a situation we've never seen before against a team we will not see the rest of the year. let's all be goldfish
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 10:21 AM - Post#328105
In response to Streamers
Comments
What would our friend John Chaney say about the turnovers and offensive rebounds given up. Keep in mind that E. Stroudsburg also caused turnovers
What should we have expected from a team with only two experienced starters who haven't played in two years?
Still, we do expect Penn to hold their own against all competition. We saw nothing last night that suggests that.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-11-21 10:55 AM - Post#328108
In response to UPIA1968
I agree with Jeff2J for maybe the first time ever. That was bad.
Rebounding translates to every team if you box out. They got 24 offensive rebounds and maybe 5 of those were because they were physically better. If you don't box out and put a body on someone, it's gonna be a long year, against everyone we play.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 11:05 AM - Post#328109
In response to Streamers
I actually thought Charles played better than Dingle (though he is asked to do less, so that may not be fair). Dingle seemed to be the biggest offender (though by no means the only one) on failing to box out, and he had clearer problems on the defensive end. And the turnovers were a problem really for everyone but Charles.
That said, in the second half Dingle was great on offense (when nobody else was). Curious to see what our offense ends up being, but I will overreact on one game and predict that Dingle will be our highest scorer since Rosen.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 11:16 AM - Post#328112
In response to LyleGold
I had the opposite view on Wang. I thought he was our only big who really looked like he belonged out there. Like Dingle, you notice him all the time — he does a lot of good, and some glaring bad as well.
We do need to work on understanding when we can turn our back to the basket while dribbling. My guess is that because we tend to allow this ourselves defensively because of what we value and what we consider a tough shot, we tend to expect other teams to do the same, maybe simply because it works in practice for us. But what a team like FSU does is run at you and take the ball away. East Strasberg did it to Wang, too. AJ would turn it over on the same play sometimes, but we also did a better job of getting him the ball in spots where he could back in without anyone being in good position to poke the ball away. Need to do the same thing with Wang this year.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 11:16 AM - Post#328113
In response to SomeGuy
Stajchert was a defensive matador. He simply did not belong out on the court on the defensive end given the size, quickness and athleticism of the opposition.
He did show his potential on offense, however. He could be fun to watch in Ivy play.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 11:42 AM - Post#328115
In response to UPIA1968
My favorite Chaney quote about the importance of rebounding was, “You’ve got to collect the garbage before you can deliver the mail.”
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-11-21 12:25 PM - Post#328117
In response to LyleGold
I think the high number of turnovers were mostly a result of the athleticism and quickness of FSU and, as P38 said, we won't see that again this year. The rebounding is a structural issue. If you don't put bodies on people, every team is gonna kill us on the boards. That has to get cleaned up. There is no reason we should be giving up 20+ offensive rebounds to anyone.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-11-21 12:30 PM - Post#328119
In response to PennFan10
The pure athleticism of Florida State translates to those rebounds. As Lyle told me early on yesterday, it's like we were playing a team of McDyess-es. At our level, we just don't get that kind of player--MLL is the closest and he still is raw compared to FS's guys. First game in 2 years with almost complete turnover (Dingle being the only one who played serious minutes 2 years ago) and had we known how really good and well coached this Seminole team was, this was to be expected. Hope the check was worth it. But Bucknell and Lafayette will tell us much more about where we are right now.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-11-21 12:51 PM - Post#328122
In response to palestra38
No it doesn't. The pure athleticism translates to a handful of those rebounds, not 20+ of them. Not all offensive rebounds are alike. If our guys are boxing out and more athletic guys are jumping higher or grabbing them because they have more length (and that happened some of the time) thats understandable. more than 2/3 of those came from players coming in from the perimeter or standing on the blocks with no one near them. Watch the tape. That's an effort thing, not an athleticism thing.
If we had done our job, FSU would still have gotten over 10 offensive rebounds, but they wouldn't have had 20+ and we would have lost by less than 20 not 35 (which could have been 50 if they didn't sub with 6min left)
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-11-21 12:53 PM - Post#328123
In response to PennFan10
On MLL I will say I was actually pleasantly surprised by his progress. He is trending toward P38's prediction, and I am happy to be wrong if that continues.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Fl State Notes
11-11-21 12:57 PM - Post#328124
In response to PennFan10
I absolutely reject your insinuation that this had anything to do with effort. It's really easy to criticize when you get blown out, but this is the kind of game far more experienced Penn teams have suffered in the past --where we get destroyed on the boards because they are coming at you from all sides and you have no one to "box". You have guys who play above the rim charging in after a shot from 20 feet out--where are you going to "box" them? We had a mismatch at virtually every position---the only way this wasn't going to happen was if we were far more efficient at our own shots and slowed the game down. But when you see how good those guys were and how raw and inexperienced we were, this is not an unexpected result...again, though, let's revisit this if anything comparable happens against Bucknell or Lafayette.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-11-21 01:00 PM - Post#328126
In response to palestra38
The announcers said it very well about our turnovers. We weren't turning it over with the passes. We were turning it over off the dribble. We definitely are short of elite ball handlers. Slajchert might turn into that, but he seemed understandably nervous against an incredibly intense defense in his first game. Meanwhile, the team did a pretty good job squeezing tough passes cross court through the defense.
For rebounds, I do agree overall that when the shot went up, many of the players looked at the hoop to see where the ball was bouncing instead of putting a body on someone. Fl state was so athletic in bouncing between our players to get position. That said, I watched a possession where Moshkovitz did a great job boxing out. He cleared his player so far out of the paint that he wasn't around to grab the ball when the ball bounced to where he was initially. The ball hit the floor. For the team to be out of sync on this in this first game isn't concerning. It will be of it persists.
It will be fun to see how this team develops!
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-11-21 01:02 PM - Post#328128
In response to Penndemonium
Agreed. The only thing I take issue with is the notion that it was lack of effort. It wasn't good, but that was a really good team we were playing for a paycheck.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-11-21 01:53 PM - Post#328130
In response to palestra38
I don’t immediately recall another game where a team gets beaten as badly as we did rebounding on the defensive end. So yes, it was really bad. Weirdly, we got a reasonable number of offensive rebounds.
I agree it is not an effort issue. Obviously everyone knows they need to get a body on someone. Usually the expressions were more “where did that guy come from?” The athleticism will do that.
On the turnovers, FSU’s defense wears on you. You could tell that eventually we were seeing ghosts. Spinoso’s travel was probably a bit of nerves, but also gives you a sense of how much FSU’s speed, size, and pressure starts to mess with you. Another turnover that stuck out was when Monroe had Wang open on the wing for an open 3 and passed it up to drive the lane into 4 guys and turn it over. Wang must have been open for 5 seconds. But things were moving at a speed where guys weren’t trusting the obvious pass.
We do need to finish passes on both ends though. Multiple turnovers occurred because the receiver didn’t fully come to the ball (this happened in the scrimmage quite a bit, too), or because the passer wasn’t crisp enough and ended up kind of putting it out there to be stolen. Those are plays where the pressure may be wearing on you mentally.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-11-21 01:55 PM - Post#328131
In response to Penndemonium
Every Ivy coach is probably working on scripting defensive pressure against the Quakers, especially full court presses after made FTs or the like and in particular when Dingle is out of the game.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-11-21 02:08 PM - Post#328133
In response to SomeGuy
Jan 2000, Kansas 105, Penn 59. Penn had Jordan and Langell, and the Ugonna freshman class. Experience and talent and we got killed in a similar type of game.
There are others.
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The Agenda
Junior
Posts: 210
Reg: 12-13-04
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11-11-21 02:08 PM - Post#328134
In response to penn nation
Acknowledging all of the mitigating factors -- first game of the season, our missing last year, the turnover in personnel, that Florida State is an extreme example of a high-major team that features both size and athleticism we don't have AND consistent effort -- I thought it was jarring how soft and unathletic we looked.
Our recruiting has flagged in that sense, and it's not because those types don't occasionally come to the Ivy. They're now just going to Harvard and Yale. We didn't used to look completely physically overmatched against top teams like we did in that second half (maybe McDyess excepted). Our guys aren't all 6-foot-2. They can at least put a body on someone and compete, and that desire appeared to wane as the toll of the pressure took hold.
I'm sure I sound like an old, but my expectation for this program is higher than "Well, let's see how we look against Bucknell." I thought there were some things to be optimistic about in the first half, but the second half, aside from Dingle making a few shots, was an embarrassment.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Fl State Notes
11-11-21 02:09 PM - Post#328135
In response to palestra38
Of course, there was the nationally televised Saturday night disaster at UMass when we had Allen and Maloney.
Edited by penn nation on 11-11-21 02:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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tioga
Freshman
Posts: 57
Reg: 05-18-06
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11-11-21 02:29 PM - Post#328136
In response to The Agenda
Remember: Villanova 90 - Penn 47
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-11-21 02:37 PM - Post#328137
In response to tioga
OK, but that's already in the tourney.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-11-21 02:39 PM - Post#328138
In response to The Agenda
I don't know - with Williams, Charles, Dingle, and MLL in the starting lineup, this might be one of our most athletic teams on the floor. The first three with Wang might be our best shooting team from a depth perspective in a long while. We just don't have our defensive and organization/leadership identity figured out yet. We don't know who to turn to when we are under pressure. Not surprising after all of these years without the grooming of veterans and younger players through the seasons. I think we will figure it out.
Fl State's size was pretty staggering. It was something to see four 7-footers. Two of them weren't just barely 7 feet tall. They felt tall at every position.
Acknowledging all of the mitigating factors -- first game of the season, our missing last year, the turnover in personnel, that Florida State is an extreme example of a high-major team that features both size and athleticism we don't have AND consistent effort -- I thought it was jarring how soft and unathletic we looked.
Our recruiting has flagged in that sense, and it's not because those types don't occasionally come to the Ivy. They're now just going to Harvard and Yale. We didn't used to look completely physically overmatched against top teams like we did in that second half (maybe McDyess excepted). Our guys aren't all 6-foot-2. They can at least put a body on someone and compete, and that desire appeared to wane as the toll of the pressure took hold.
I'm sure I sound like an old, but my expectation for this program is higher than "Well, let's see how we look against Bucknell." I thought there were some things to be optimistic about in the first half, but the second half, aside from Dingle making a few shots, was an embarrassment.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-11-21 02:42 PM - Post#328139
In response to Penndemonium
But we held our own with those guys in there. We started falling off the pace once others on the bench came in. SD saw where this was headed, and he brought some of the starters back in and, for most of the first half, we did OK.
I don't know - with Williams, Charles, Dingle, and MLL in the starting lineup, this might be one of our most athletic teams on the floor. The first three with Wang might be our best shooting team from a depth perspective in a long while. We just don't have our defensive and organization/leadership identity figured out yet. We don't know who to turn to when we are under pressure. Not surprising after all of these years without the grooming of veterans and younger players through the seasons. I think we will figure it out.
Fl State's size was pretty staggering. It was something to see four 7-footers. Two of them weren't just barely 7 feet tall. They felt tall at every position.
Acknowledging all of the mitigating factors -- first game of the season, our missing last year, the turnover in personnel, that Florida State is an extreme example of a high-major team that features both size and athleticism we don't have AND consistent effort -- I thought it was jarring how soft and unathletic we looked.
Our recruiting has flagged in that sense, and it's not because those types don't occasionally come to the Ivy. They're now just going to Harvard and Yale. We didn't used to look completely physically overmatched against top teams like we did in that second half (maybe McDyess excepted). Our guys aren't all 6-foot-2. They can at least put a body on someone and compete, and that desire appeared to wane as the toll of the pressure took hold.
I'm sure I sound like an old, but my expectation for this program is higher than "Well, let's see how we look against Bucknell." I thought there were some things to be optimistic about in the first half, but the second half, aside from Dingle making a few shots, was an embarrassment.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-11-21 02:45 PM - Post#328140
In response to palestra38
Right, but we didn’t get killed in the same way on the defensive boards in that Kansas game. We got 60% of the available rebounds on the defensive end in that game against Kansas in 2000. That wasn’t a great rebounding effort, obviously, but it was within the normal range of getting beat up by a bigger and more athletic team. Last night was something else. I’m sure it happens, but I don’t immediately recall a division one game where a team gives up significantly more rebounds than it gets on the defensive glass.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-11-21 03:15 PM - Post#328141
In response to SomeGuy
Yeah, for the first 15 minutes, we looked like we belonged out there. That's not a small thing, though we'll need to be able to do that for 40 minutes.
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The Agenda
Junior
Posts: 210
Reg: 12-13-04
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11-11-21 03:16 PM - Post#328142
In response to SomeGuy
Right, but we didn’t get killed in the same way on the defensive boards in that Kansas game. We got 60% of the available rebounds on the defensive end in that game against Kansas in 2000. That wasn’t a great rebounding effort, obviously, but it was within the normal range of getting beat up by a bigger and more athletic team. Last night was something else. I’m sure it happens, but I don’t immediately recall a division one game where a team gives up significantly more rebounds than it gets on the defensive glass.
Correct. FSU had 24 offensive rebounds to our 18 defensive rebounds. That's outside the bounds of any kind of normalcy. Maybe FSU is just that big/physical, but that can't be all of it.
And to the broader question of "atheticism," being able to beat a man on the bounce isn't the only barometer of that, but we didn't look like we had anyone on the floor who could consistently do that last night where it led to much positive. That's also a departure from past seasons, where we typically had a lead guard capable in that sense.
I don't doubt that this team will have some good moments against more suitable competition, but my point is our standards have slipped significantly if that's all we're aiming for these days.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-11-21 03:56 PM - Post#328145
In response to The Agenda
It is way too early to suggest that our expectations are too low, unless your expectations are of 1970s competitiveness. We have a new team and it will take some time to come together. but I expect this team to get better and compete for an Ivy title
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-11-21 03:59 PM - Post#328146
In response to The Agenda
I see both sides of this debate, but I'm kinda with PF10 and Agenda in the sense that the guys we had playing in the front court, with the exception of MLL, were often AWOL in the 2nd half on the defensive boards. Wang, in particular, just looked kinda gassed in the last 15 minutes. I do think being down that much took some of the fight out a few of our guys, at least on the defensive end.
I understand the matchups were bad, and Martz was not dressed, but nobody told guys like Grandieri and Zoller they could not rebound against power 5 opponents. Penn will not fare well against teams like Yale if this does not improve. Keep an eye on Spinoso. He may end up being part of the solution here.
I also agree that this team needs to keep the ball off the floor as much as possible on offense if they are to be successful.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-11-21 04:19 PM - Post#328147
In response to The Agenda
Not sure about the lead guard thing. I’d go the opposite, really — I think Dingle and Slajchert are pretty capable off the bounce. Probably more so than our recent guards. This will be the first time under Donahue that we are really a guard first team.
Let’s give Dingle a couple of games as the man against non top 20 teams, and let’s give Slajchert a couple of games as a division one player, before we get too focused on what guys can and can’t do.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Fl State Notes
11-11-21 04:33 PM - Post#328148
In response to SomeGuy
Dingle is very capable. Slachjert is capable at least of breaking a press, although the jury is still out on how frequently he can either break down a defense in the half court or create his own shot.
Edited by penn nation on 11-11-21 04:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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andybech
Freshman
Posts: 80
Reg: 02-15-20
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11-11-21 04:38 PM - Post#328149
In response to SomeGuy
The result yesterday is probably what we should have expected. The absence of basketball for a year probably raised anticipation but it should not have raised expectations. This is compounded by having multiple major players (Williams, Charles, Wang) sitting out the past season. They were going to be rusty and behind other teams.
Hard to say how good this team is. They are really not that athletic (they are good for the Ivies, but a step slow at several positions to step up in class) so their progress will probably depend on improving their decision making and rebounding. They don't have a point guard that can handle the ball against a team like FSU. Whether they are OK in the Ivies will be a better test. They also are not a great rebounding team and I suspect they will play Martz at the 4 a bunch.
The plus is that this could be a really good shooting team that has good size for the Ivies even playing a small lineup. I do think they need to mind their John Chaney lessons referenced above, because if they learn how to take care of the ball, their shooting will win them lots of games.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Fl State Notes
11-11-21 05:00 PM - Post#328150
In response to andybech
Penn fans, for what its worth, I watched part of the opening half and was impressed with the size and skills of the Penn players I saw. Opening with a top 20 power conference squad, on the road, under all of the circumstances you have acknowledged above created too large of a hurdle. Regardless, Penn wasn't blown out of the gym, and was actually only down 28-26 about midway through the first half.
As many have observed already, OOC is going to be bumpy, Penn is definitely in the hunt starting Jan 2, 2022.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 11-11-21 05:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 05:11 PM - Post#328151
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
You saw by far the best stretch of the game for Penn.
There were actually under 7 minutes to go in the first half when it was 28-26.
FSU was literally unstoppable in the second half. For the first 6 minutes, they scored on every single possession. Then add in the fact by this point that SD started giving everyone on the bench some playing time, and it got out of hand rather quickly.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 06:03 PM - Post#328154
In response to penn nation
In both the scrimmage and the FSU game, the starters played great in the first half. And then they began the second half terribly. Yes, Donahue started using the bench heavily in the second half, but that was only after we fell behind by 24 with the starters playing.
While that stretch may have been the ballgame, to your point — I believe that we played them very close to even in the first half when MLL and Wang played together. We were just -3 with MLL on the floor in the first half, and Wang was (-4). But that opening stretch in the second half they were -10 before MLL got pulled, and then -12 when Wang got pulled.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 06:45 PM - Post#328158
In response to SomeGuy
Penn individual analytics numbers as calculated by FSU.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 07:06 PM - Post#328160
In response to Stuart Suss
Dingle the clear, expected standout.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 07:57 PM - Post#328161
In response to penn nation
add in the fact by this point that SD started giving everyone on the bench some playing time, and it got out of hand rather quickly.
A wise decision under the circumstances.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 08:00 PM - Post#328164
In response to Streamers
add in the fact by this point that SD started giving everyone on the bench some playing time, and it got out of hand rather quickly.
A wise decision under the circumstances.
Agreed. Our starters had been through the proverbial ringer by then at any rate, as noted earlier.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 09:57 PM - Post#328176
In response to penn nation
Or was it Spinoso? Penn won the 10 minutes that he was in the game! Play him 35 a night, we’ll win every game.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 10:01 PM - Post#328177
In response to SomeGuy
Yeah, I saw that. Probably helped his cause that he was facing FSU players 16-20 during some of that time.
In truth, Dingle had some late moments in garbage time as well, but he proved his mettle earlier on against the big boys.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-11-21 11:14 PM - Post#328179
In response to palestra38
We didn’t box out, that is an indisputable fact. Put whatever excuse suits you. If it happens again, we’ll lose by double digits.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 12:20 AM - Post#328186
In response to PennFan10
Folks, we had exactly two goals in this game: relieve Florida State of a boatload of cash, and have another cool opponent that we can use to attract recruits. This was our first game in two years, on the road, against a team that went to the Sweet 16 last year, is ranked #20 right now, has an exceedingly deep and gifted roster, and plays a style of defense that gives Ivy teams fits. None of the teams in the league would have looked good in this game. If we look this bad in the next three games, then we can start panicking, but let's relax until then.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4473
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 02:12 AM - Post#328188
In response to PennFan10
We didn’t box out, that is an indisputable fact. Put whatever excuse suits you. If it happens again, we’ll lose by double digits.
Will you please stop yapping about not boxing out? Have you ever played highly competitive basketball? Have you ever played highly competitive basketball against another team taller and more athletic than you? Have you ever played highly competitive basketball against another team taller and more athletic than you where they played highly competitive basketball the previous year while all you did was practice? My guess is no, no, and no... Which is why you make such an absurd and unfounded criticism.
It was delusional (Sorry to say this for those who bet and took Penn +20) for anyone to think that we could be competitive against Florida State for the entire game. I saw plenty of positives to take away from the loss... Painful as it was to watch.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 06:25 AM - Post#328189
In response to Cvonvorys
It was delusional (Sorry to say this for those who bet and took Penn +20) for anyone to think that we could be competitive against Florida State for the entire game. I saw plenty of positives to take away from the loss... Painful as it was to watch.
Well I took the bet and lost so I was delusional. However I did take the over and that was cleared easily. Part of my thinking was that even the good teams sometimes struggle on opening night. FSU did but only for 15 minutes.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 10:12 AM - Post#328196
In response to OldBig5
I did exactly what you did. Part of my thinking was the fatal case of FOMO I would have if we covered. It’s all play money anyway.
I’m not going on about boxing out, but seeing all those uncontested offensive rebounds in the 2nd half was a new a highly unpleasant experience for me. Even worse than the turnovers.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 10:13 AM - Post#328197
In response to Cvonvorys
You know nothing about me and your presumptions are absurd.
The boys played hard overall and I saw a lot of positives. Hopefully the fixable stuff gets corrected and we play better tonight in DC.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 421
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 10:38 AM - Post#328201
In response to Cvonvorys
How many of our guys would be able to play on their team and how many of theirs on ours. The answer to this question will more often than not tell who's going to win.
FSU is a really good basketball team coached by a criminally underrated coach. That Penn didn't lose by more is a credit to coach Donahue and his guys.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4473
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 10:45 AM - Post#328202
In response to CM
How many of our guys would be able to play on their team and how many of theirs on ours. The answer to this question will more often than not tell who's going to win.
FSU is a really good basketball team coached by a criminally underrated coach. That Penn didn't lose by more is a credit to coach Donahue and his guys.
Thanks for making my point.
I don't care how skilled someone who is 5 feet 5 inches is at boxing out, I'll still get a boatload of rebounds while matched up against him (or her or them)...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-12-21 11:10 AM - Post#328204
In response to Cvonvorys
I thought we were moving on. You are still trafficking in the absurd.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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Re: Fl State Notes
11-12-21 12:54 PM - Post#328214
In response to Streamers
I did exactly what you did. Part of my thinking was the fatal case of FOMO I would have if we covered. It’s all play money anyway.
I’m not going on about boxing out, but seeing all those uncontested offensive rebounds in the 2nd half was a new a highly unpleasant experience for me. Even worse than the turnovers.
$1 bets for me!! I hot an Exacta at the breeders cup last week so actually have a little money in my account.
Signed
Last of the big time spenders.
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