TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-18-21 08:26 AM - Post#328851
I am so glad you chose Penn. You are the clear floor leader and best player on the team. You give your all on both ends of the court. But you’re trying to do too much out there and it has to stop.
It was kind of excusable for the first two games. The team was outclassed and you tried to do what you could.
You put up good numbers against Bucknell despite continuing to maintain a usage rate north of 30% so I said nothing.
Then you continued the hero balling against Lafayette for no good reason. Yes, we won by 30 but you put up too many low percentage shots. 4-12 from the field when the rest of the team is 30-49 isn’t cutting it. A sub-100 ORat on a 32% usage rate should be telling you something.
If you have an open look then go for it. It’s part of the Stevie D system to do that. Just stop hoisting it up when you have a defender draped all over you, there’s enough proof in the numbers that you aren’t going to make the shot. Give up the rock instead.
Handing over a few marginal possessions to your teammates is going to have a positive impact. Trust me on this.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23360
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-21 09:00 AM - Post#328857
In response to TheLine
Stay aggressive young man.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4358
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-21 09:16 AM - Post#328859
In response to 10Q
That’s the way I feel. Keep bringing it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: A sit-down with Jordan Dingle
11-18-21 09:24 AM - Post#328860
In response to TheLine
He wouldn't be heaving it up unless Donahue gave him the green light to do so. And frankly, Lafayette's concern about Dingle opened things up for everyone else. Finally, he missed a bunch of easy shots inside the paint that would have changed his numbers dramatically
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-18-21 09:44 AM - Post#328868
In response to palestra38
Dingle is hero balling. If he was putting up Rosen numbers and had a weak supporting cast then OK, do it. But he isn't and doesn't. Shooting 40% from the field isn't getting it done. Sorry. He has to stop putting up shots that have little chance of success.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: A sit-down with Jordan Dingle
11-18-21 09:50 AM - Post#328870
In response to TheLine
I think there are some points to keep an eye on and think about here. However, I think the Lafayette game may show you that it is already taking care of itself. Against FSU in the second half, nothing else was working at all, so it became the Jordan show, and I agree that may have had some continuing impacts. But there is plenty of room for Dingle to get to the basket within the context of the offense and make everyone else better in the process. I thought the mix of shots against Lafayette was just about right. Dingle didn’t shoot it as well as he sometimes does, and that happens. Should he have a usage rate above 30 with an ORAT below 100? No. I don’t think the ORAT number will stay there.
I do agree that there are points where the offense stagnates and/or slows down because Dingle is looking for an opening. That happened early in the Lafayette game but got better as the game went on. My preference is to keep the ball moving rather than having Jordan dribble around looking for an opening. I actually think quicker movement gives him better opportunities to drive in the long run.
But in the end — I don’t see a problem. I think over the course of the season we’ll see, as we did in the Lafayette game, the Donahue offense doing what it does, and I think we’ll see Dingle score more than anyone has for us since Rosen.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 09:59 AM - Post#328872
In response to SomeGuy
of course the line is right. And SomeGuy, jordan has shown no evidence that he's ever been a 100 ORAT player so I'm not sure why that would just rise. We're treating him like he's Kirkwood when he's not there.
BTW, Steve knows all this, so either Steve will rein it in or Steve feels that the team is too bad and Jordan has to do this. The upside on that team is basically KenPom 200. It's not a winning strategy
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: A sit-down with Jordan Dingle
11-18-21 10:18 AM - Post#328875
In response to TheLine
I think we all have to keep our eye on our prize which is how is the offense doing in general.
In the earlier games, it became the Jordan Dingle show simply because not much else seemed to be working other than Charles' long range bombs. Also, he was bringing the ball up and running the point most of the time.
I much prefer to see the offense operate like it did earlier this week. Maybe Dingle did not shoot it as well (and as others have noted, he missed some easy ones during extended garbage time), but the offense was much more diversified and the team looked a lot better. Multiple Quakers were bringing the ball up, and the ball was running through a variety of players at times in the high and low post.
Dingle at times has definitely played like he has to do everything--he puts a lot of pressure on himself. Perhaps with Martz now back, and even with someone like Washington beginning to step up, he won't feel it as necessary to force the issue.
Edited by penn nation on 11-18-21 10:20 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 10:19 AM - Post#328876
In response to Jeff2sf
The evidence is that most guys who can put a 95 ORAT as a freshman with a high usage rate will ultimately become a 100+ ORAT player. The guy you bring up as a comparison, Noah Kirkwood, is an example. His ORAT has gone up each year, and is now above 100 for the first time in his college career. Dingle was around 95 as a freshman, and was over 100 prior to Lafayette. After Lafayette, his ORAT is 99.6. I’m not sure how you can definitively say a guy with a 99.6 after 4 games is doomed to be a sub 100 guy.
That said, I do agree with one thing you said. If Dingle puts up the same ORAT he did as a freshman, Donahue will change the offense to limit his opportunities. I just don’t think you’ll see that happen.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 10:25 AM - Post#328877
In response to SomeGuy
just rise with a 37% usage. He couldn't be efficient with a 25% usage, he's not going to do so barfing up shots.
The problem with Jordan Dingle is we treat him as if he's already this plus player when all he is so far is a promising player. There's a huge difference.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-21 10:27 AM - Post#328878
In response to SomeGuy
And here's where we have to trust our eyes as well--Dingle looks like a man among boys with his strength in the lane. Steve clearly sees that, so he is playing what he perceives to be an advantage. It is astounding to me that anyone would be looking at this critically after a game we won by 30 and could have won by a lot more. But Charles and Monroe have similar skills and we should see them as well posting up. All of this opens up the kickout for open 3s. I liked the way our offense played a lot the other day. Dingle just missed some easy shots--he was not playing hero ball.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-18-21 10:32 AM - Post#328880
In response to Jeff2sf
Dingle's overall stroke appears to have improved since his freshman year.
He's also able to pretty much break down any guard who has defended him one on one--that alone makes him special.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 10:32 AM - Post#328881
In response to palestra38
i see what you see. the problem is that it's not true. anyone who knows basketball knows this. It's why players routinely overrate a Russell Westbrook or even a Jordan Clarkson. GETS BUCKETS is cool. but it's not working.
and just STFU about Monroe. He's averaging 4 a game.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 10:33 AM - Post#328882
In response to Jeff2sf
And God Dam it but I like both of these players. You're just overrating the crap out of them.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-21 10:33 AM - Post#328883
In response to Jeff2sf
Down boy. Barking loudly just doesn't make your point. Nor does a 4 game average constitute any kind of significant sample.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-18-21 10:36 AM - Post#328885
In response to Jeff2sf
You have a valid point. What also has to be understood, of course, is that having Dingle on the court keeps the opposition honest and makes it easier for the offense overall to operate.
If he's not out there, it's somewhat more challenging for us to create either easy buckets close to the basket or wide open 3s.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-18-21 10:42 AM - Post#328888
In response to palestra38
Where's the evidence that Dingle is effective in the lane and posting up? He's shooting not much better than 40% inside the arc. My eyes told me that story before I looked up the numbers.
Mike James once provided a link to a site that broke down shots by range. Unfortunately I can't find it.
Is it controversial to say the offense would function better if Dingle - who is a 40% career shooter - consumed a quarter of the possessions instead of a third?
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-18-21 10:43 AM - Post#328889
In response to penn nation
You have a valid point. What also has to be understood, of course, is that having Dingle on the court keeps the opposition honest and makes it easier for the offense overall to operate.
If he's not out there, it's somewhat more challenging for us to create either easy buckets close to the basket or wide open 3s.
the argument isn't that jordan should be on the bench. it's more subtle than that. It can only be two things:
1. there's no option better than jordan and he has to do this. If that's the case, we will be a KenPom 200-250 team. As certain as the sun rises in the east. A good analog might be Shake Milton putting up 19 shots against Utah. They were probably the best shots available, but your team isn't winning with Shake Milton putting up 19 shots. There's just a natural ceiling on that.
OR
2. He will pull back, stop barfing up bad shots, and his efficiency will rise as his usage goes down to still a high level but not as high.
The weird thing isn't that you all like Dingle, the weird thing is that you think the current situation is just fine. It's not. It will not work. These adjustments happen all the time in college basketball and the NBA.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 368
Reg: 12-16-04
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11-18-21 10:56 AM - Post#328893
In response to Jeff2sf
One point about what Steve is allowing to happen: There have been a whole bunch of possessions this year where the guy that dribbled it up jacked up a 3.
Anyone remember that happening before, even a little bit?
Perhaps it is a simple as there is not a commandment to wait for AJ, but I find it very noticeable.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-21 10:58 AM - Post#328894
In response to palestra38
You can find analytics links at Pennstats.com. You will need to click on the link at the top of the page for "Full Calendar/Results" and then use the filters for men's (or women's) basketball.
Not all teams use the same program. Therefore, Bucknell analytics are unavailable.
In addition to the ORtg, look at numbers like eFG (effective field goal percentage) and TS (true shooting percentage). They emphasize the point made by those who are concerned about Jordan Dingle trying to do too much.
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