AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-03-21 06:02 PM - Post#330524
In response to palestra38
Ethyn Brown was on an official for the Nova game. I see we just offered him. He’s a 6’2” guard from Illinois, prepping in NC
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-03-21 07:49 PM - Post#330530
In response to palestra38
Nah, Princeton's team is almost all new and that has no affect, they are 20th and we went from top 10 every year to 145th. It's not about "learning to play together".
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Nova
12-03-21 08:22 PM - Post#330531
In response to PennFan10
Wang has always been a set shot (no/little jump) shooter from outside.
A defensive stat I have noticed is oppononents assisted FG%. In the past we have been top 10 in the country in that stat (18,19 and 20) and it has been a point of emphasis by SD and the staff. That is, stay on your guy, don't double and make people make shots over you by staying in front of people without fouling. This year we are 146th in that statistic, giving up almost as many assisted baskets as we are making. The only other team that has played similar to that in the Ivy's is Princeton (they don't double, stay in front and avoid assisted baskets against) ranking in the top 20 over the same period as us. Princeton is #20 again this year in that stat.
That's a pretty dramatic shift from a point of emphasis in the past. I am not sure if its because of a strategy shift or a talent shift.
I’d guess talent, with no consistent shotblocking presence on the back line to increase the difficulty level of the 2-pt. shots we allow. We had 4-years of A.J. as a help defender in the paint and the team defense was built around that.
MLL was supposed to be that guy this year, but we’ve barely gotten 100 minutes of play out of him so far.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 12-03-21 08:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32814
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-03-21 08:38 PM - Post#330532
In response to PennFan10
Our schedule has a LOT to do with this. In fact, it probably has everything to do with it. You cannot look at this roster and say there is no talent. Combination of lack of experience and injury as well.
We'll be fine if we get back at least one center before league play starts.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4477
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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12-04-21 12:07 AM - Post#330540
In response to palestra38
Our schedule has a LOT to do with this. In fact, it probably has everything to do with it. You cannot look at this roster and say there is no talent. Combination of lack of experience and injury as well.
We'll be fine if we get back at least one center before league play starts.
I do so enjoy when P38 and I agree.
True or false:
1) Can Jordan create his own shot at the same level or better than any other Ivy Leaguer? I say TRUE.
2) Is Jonah with an open look at a 3-pointer = a lay up? I say TRUE.
3) Is Clark money with his tear drop? I say TRUE.
4) Is Lucas an underappreciated talent? I say TRUE.
5) Are Max, Jalani, Bryce, Michael, and et. al. as good or better than most other Ivy Leaguers? I say TRUE.
I understand that we will find out soon enough...
P38... Do you agree with me that the current Penn roster has the talent to finish in the top 4 in the Ivy League and has a legitimate shot at winning the Ivy League Tourney?
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 01:26 AM - Post#330542
In response to Cvonvorys
We have no post defense without Max and we have only nominal post offense with Spinoso. They are not interchangeable and having only one or the other is not a winning formula, unless one or both of them shows dramatic improvement on the end of the floor where they’re weakest.
Wang is a lost cause in the post on either end. We just need some jumpers from him on O.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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12-04-21 02:36 AM - Post#330544
In response to Chip Bayers
Princeton's vanilla defense (accurately described above) may be reducing the number of assisted baskets against, but it is allowing a scary number of straight line drives to the hoop, as well as open treys when the perimeter defenders sag to avoid getting blown by. Weak-side help hasn't been a thing, either, most of the time. The best periods for PU have been when they apply ball pressure and force turnovers and out-of-rhythm shots.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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12-04-21 05:33 AM - Post#330545
In response to SRP
https://www.thedp.com/article/2021/12/penn- mens-ba...
Sounds like we won’t get either Spinoso or MLL for the rest of the year.
What’s the plan? Mosh simply cannot play the five. He’s not big or talented enough to be a rim protector or crash the boards. Larson? Has seen five garbage time minutes this year with no impact. Wang? Turnstile defense. Like it or not nearly every Ivy team has a big that will kill us inside given our current situation.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-04-21 08:43 AM - Post#330547
In response to Quake Show
Who are these Ivy bigs who will kill us? Right now, Harvard doesn’t play anyone above 6’6. Their center shoots about as many 3s as 2s (and not a lot of either). Yale’s center is a little taller, but similar — he’s basically a wing forced to play center. Princeton’s current starting center is the best of the group offensively, but he’s more of a physical match for Martz and Monroe anyway — a 6’7 guy who likes to get the ball facing the basket. Basically a power forward.
Cornell’s Dickson is playing well and is more of an inside presence. But Mosh will be taller than him. The only team that really has a big anything like the Ivy bigs from 2019-20 is Brown, with Gainey, but he is more defender than post scorer, too.
Regardless, though, I think you guys are underestimating Mosh as a defender. I actually think he is our best post defender even when everyone else is healthy. But, like a number of our players in recent years, defending and rebounding seem to be an either/or proposition. And of course finishing seems to be an issue as well. But I like all of the other stuff he brings to the table.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 10:14 AM - Post#330551
In response to SomeGuy
I concur with SomeGuy. I will add that Mosh, at 23, has a more mature body and is “somewhat bulky” in Ivy terms. I also expect him to improve at finishing his shots against less athletic players. Hopefully, we will get Spinoso and/or MLL back for all, or at least most, of the Ivy season, but that is more about depth than about Mosh's ability. In the meantime, we have four more challenging games to measure this team before the league starts. I am not disappointed by the early results.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 04:10 PM - Post#330566
In response to Condor
I concur with SomeGuy. I will add that Mosh, at 23, has a more mature body and is “somewhat bulky” in Ivy terms. I also expect him to improve at finishing his shots against less athletic players. Hopefully, we will get Spinoso and/or MLL back for all, or at least most, of the Ivy season, but that is more about depth than about Mosh's ability. In the meantime, we have four more challenging games to measure this team before the league starts. I am not disappointed by the early results.
Not sure I agree but I’m certainly willing to learn something this afternoon.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 05:19 PM - Post#330573
In response to AsiaSunset
Ethyn Brown was on an official for the Nova game. I see we just offered him. He’s a 6’2” guard from Illinois, prepping in NC
Hadn’t heard his name before. Looks like his offers are Penn and Southeast Missouri State (whatever that is?)…
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 05:23 PM - Post#330574
In response to palestra38
What do you consider fine? Another 7-7 Ivy season?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-04-21 05:35 PM - Post#330580
In response to AsiaSunset
I concur with SomeGuy. I will add that Mosh, at 23, has a more mature body and is “somewhat bulky” in Ivy terms. I also expect him to improve at finishing his shots against less athletic players. Hopefully, we will get Spinoso and/or MLL back for all, or at least most, of the Ivy season, but that is more about depth than about Mosh's ability. In the meantime, we have four more challenging games to measure this team before the league starts. I am not disappointed by the early results.
Not sure I agree but I’m certainly willing to learn something this afternoon.
Yeah… guys, I’m going to share an unpopular opinion based on general temperature here and various moral victory mentions.
Without injuries our true big rotation would be MLL, Spinoso, Wang (post serious injury and surgeries) and Mosh. Would anyone here actually pick that rotation as an Ivy winning big rotation?
After injuries, our starting center is a junior college transfer that Columbia passed on, really let that sink in… I’m sure a great kid and would be perfect for spot minutes, but starting?
I really like our guards and wings offensively, and I think their D could be improved because it really is team D lacking. The problem isn’t “Dingle shooting too much” or anything like that, it’s team structure and that comes down to recruiting or lack there of. It’s criminal of the coaching staff that we haven’t built enough on top of the Dingle, Martz, Charles, MLL class with not one but two recruiting classes.
For 2022 it seems like we have one last top target for bigs right? I sure hope we can get him or we risk wasting more years from kids like Dingle and Martz who even took off a year to be able to play for Penn.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-04-21 05:52 PM - Post#330585
In response to Mike Porter
Question to me still is — who has an Ivy League winning front court? Harvard played the majority of the game today against UMass with 5 guards. The whole league is dealing with the same thing.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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12-04-21 05:54 PM - Post#330586
In response to Cvonvorys
I like our team, and am not trying to criticize them to in saying that I don't think your questions are the right ones. Here are the ones that matter:
1) Do we have more than one first/second All-Ivy calibre player for this year? NOT YET
Will Dingle be unstoppable in the Ivies when teams focus on him? MAYBE.
2) Does Penn have more than one go-to player to get a good shot in a clutch moment: NOT YET, BUT HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WILL STEP UP TO HELP DINGLE. MAYBE MARTZ. CHARLES IN FUTURE YEARS.
3) Does Penn have top 2 team defense in the league? I'M GOING TO LEAN TOWARDS NO, THOUGH THEY ARE PRETTY GOOD ON THAT FRONT.
4) Do we have other intangibles? WE COMPETE FOR A FULL GAME, BUT SEEM TO STILL BE ASSEMBLING THE TEAM DYNAMICS.
5) Is our bench a game-winning difference maker? PROBABLY NOT AFTER OUR RUN OF FRONT LINE INJURIES.
I like our team, and will hope for the best. They have talent that stacks up well against our recent teams. The league seems to be playing very well, though, and we don't have Brodeur and Betley reliability from our best players yet. I like the design of our offense and defense, but I don't love the execution right now. They play hard, compete well, and have pretty strong athletes.
Based on the above, I think we will compete with everyone and dominate no one. This season will hinge on their mental toughness. This will be an interesting league season!
Our schedule has a LOT to do with this. In fact, it probably has everything to do with it. You cannot look at this roster and say there is no talent. Combination of lack of experience and injury as well.
We'll be fine if we get back at least one center before league play starts.
I do so enjoy when P38 and I agree.
True or false:
1) Can Jordan create his own shot at the same level or better than any other Ivy Leaguer? I say TRUE.
2) Is Jonah with an open look at a 3-pointer = a lay up? I say TRUE.
3) Is Clark money with his tear drop? I say TRUE.
4) Is Lucas an underappreciated talent? I say TRUE.
5) Are Max, Jalani, Bryce, Michael, and et. al. as good or better than most other Ivy Leaguers? I say TRUE.
I understand that we will find out soon enough...
P38... Do you agree with me that the current Penn roster has the talent to finish in the top 4 in the Ivy League and has a legitimate shot at winning the Ivy League Tourney?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-04-21 06:25 PM - Post#330593
In response to Penndemonium
FWIW, according to kenpom, we rank 7th in the league in defense, and 3rd in offense.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-04-21 07:53 PM - Post#330634
In response to SomeGuy
Harvard has an Ivy winning front court. They will have some of them back by the time the league starts.
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