UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1120
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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01-09-22 12:11 AM - Post#332904
I went back and looked at Donahue's recruiting and found this. Looking optimistically, he has had two good years: 2017 (Brodeur) and 2020 (Dingle); two other years with a ranked recruit: 2018 (Simmons) and 2019 (Wang); and a depth year in 2022.
When combined with good inherited talent (Woods, Foreman, and Max) the first good year won a championship. One hopes the 2020 class of Dingle, Martz, Monroe, Charles, and MLL will form the core of a second contender.
However, since the 2017 core peaked in its second year, the program has clearly regressed. Moreover, the core of the supposedly good 2020 team has shown no signs of excellence this year. Yes, the COVID mess has hurt, both in performance and recruiting, but the other Ivies have the same handicap.
Put a different way. Although the last four years of recruiting have produced seven or eight players of mid-Ivy competence, they have produced only one star in Dingle. And there appears to be no miracle coming to join the team next year in what looks like an alarmingly poor incoming class. In sum then Steve recruited three stars his first year, A.J. a remarkable star and two more in Betley and Dev. Since then he has produced but one in Jordan Dingle. This leaves us with the current roster of perhaps commendable depth, but without the talent that can pound a 345 team like Columbia, or realistically contend for a championship.
I hate to say this, but only Dingle of the current squad would get serious time with the talent that Steve inherited from Jerome. Fill in the names: DNH and Max up front, Howard on the wing, with Woods and Foreman sharing time with Dingle in the backcourt. Oh yeah, Hicks could have been on that team. One could make the same sad comparison with the Miller talent. It takes the blue snow of A.J. to produce any favorable recruiting comparisons between Steve and his two disastrous predecessors. Certainly, he has run a much more principled program, with some development successes. Still, that looks definitely like a principled program that, with some luck, squeaks into the Ivy Tournament some years. Obviously, that is good enough for the Administration. It is not good for me in a league where all but one of the other teams play in a high school gym.
Let me close by saying I continue to follow the team hoping for a miraculous turnaround. Sadly I apparently will have to keep doing that in a down era that now spans 16 years. Are two contenders in that time enough? Not for me.
By all means, respond to my pessimism with some comments that provide reasons to support my naive hopes. But please tell me how a team that is minus eleven offensive rebounds to a Ken Pom 345 team at home is going to suddenly find a pumpkin to turn into a royal chariot.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-09-22 12:34 AM - Post#332908
In response to UPIA1968
Guy who disappeared when the team won its first two league games suddenly has thoughts.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-09-22 11:43 AM - Post#332934
In response to UPIA1968
Development success? Who? Otherwise well stated.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-09-22 12:55 PM - Post#332944
In response to Buckeye Quake
Well, if you are going to say Steve isn’t recruiting any better than Allen and Miller, you have to account for the difference in performance somehow. Whether he is recruiting better or developing better, or something else, the overall results have been much better.
Now, whether they are better enough is a whole different question. The program isn’t where any of us want it to be (including Steve, I’m sure). But the fact he has moved the needle is clear.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1896
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-09-22 12:58 PM - Post#332945
In response to Buckeye Quake
Foreman, Woods, Betley, Rothschild, and even Brodeur. Goodman also improved from a player who I thought would never play much. I’m neither calling for SD’s head or protecting it. But some players definitely improved under his watch. Some of those were JA’s recruits, but they never looked very good until SD.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-09-22 01:03 PM - Post#332946
In response to UPIA1968
Columbia was too big and too quick for us-just like our out of conference schedule opponents. Throughout those games and this one, we have been out-quicked and out-rebounded. Columbia smelled blood on the water, and they played tight defense and exploited the mismatches. We can't rely on the three ball night after night, obviously, and a team that clamps down on us exposes our major weakness-a lack of healthy big men who can jump (even a little), defend, and score. That is a function of bad luck with the MLL injury and big man recruiting failures year after year. We do have athleticism on our bench, but this is at the small forward position. If they could help mitigate the problem, they would play. Steve isn't blind, so I assume, without any knowledge, that those players either were over-hyped coming to Penn, are too one-dimensional, have lingering injuries, haven't learned the plus well enough to fit easily into a team concept, or some combination of that. While one could say it is on them, in part that could be true, but in part , it has to be on the coaching staff. If we want to move beyond being a middle of the road Ivy team, and we all do, these things, top to bottom, need to be addressed quickly.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-09-22 01:08 PM - Post#332948
In response to pennsive
I think Columbia is pretty clearly the least quick and athletic of the Ivy teams we’ve played so far. Big, yes, particularly in terms of width.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 240
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-09-22 06:20 PM - Post#332981
In response to SomeGuy
Their have been recruiting failures with players that should currently be on this roster. I have made my opinion on the recruiting style of this current staff cryptically known. I have no history with SD and have heard he is a very good man, however my any means players, good talented Ivy eligible players have slipped through the cracks.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1896
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-09-22 06:55 PM - Post#332983
In response to nychoops
BTW, what has happened to Ed Holland? I was hopeful that he would be a player - he seemed to be a high level recruit for us. I haven't seen him out there.
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The Pine
Freshman
Posts: 61
Reg: 02-22-15
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01-10-22 03:03 PM - Post#333010
In response to Penndemonium
I think the idea that Penn will be a team that resembled the 80s or 90s, well, those days are over whether Steve is there or not. The League and college hoops are different.
I have seen Columbia play in NYC and they are really terrible. Never would have guessed we'd lose, but Penn had a bad night. It happens. Still, the team is very young across the board. Look who wins every year, including when Penn won, it is stocked with senior talent. It makes a huge difference. The Penn nucleus is good, just very inexperienced. Hang on.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-10-22 03:56 PM - Post#333023
In response to The Pine
If CU is that terrible, how did they get off to a big lead at Princeton? They are a strong (i.e., big and physical)team and if you shoot poorly, they can beat you.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Donahue Recruiting
01-10-22 03:58 PM - Post#333024
In response to palestra38
If CU is that terrible, how did they get off to a big lead at Princeton? They are a strong (i.e., big and physical)team and if you shoot poorly, they can beat you.
It's not if, Columbia is terrible. It is a statement of fact, they are terrible. Ranked 345 out of 358 teams, and that's after beating us away.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-10-22 04:03 PM - Post#333025
In response to nychoops
Their have been recruiting failures with players that should currently be on this roster. I have made my opinion on the recruiting style of this current staff cryptically known. I have no history with SD and have heard he is a very good man, however my any means players, good talented Ivy eligible players have slipped through the cracks.
Thank you nychoops for your honesty and general approach here of sharing knowledge from your perspective.
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andybech
Freshman
Posts: 80
Reg: 02-15-20
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Donahue Recruiting
01-10-22 04:07 PM - Post#333026
In response to Mike Porter
I think it is possible for Penn to repeat what they did in the mid-80s and into the 90s. Note this draws a line somewhere in the early 80s when the sport became a bigger TV game and it became harder for an Ivy program to be a national program.
This probably means a program ranked in the 100-150 range but not much better than that nationally. It will be MUCH harder for teams to win 13 or 14 games in the league though because the rest of the league is better. Most specifically Harvard and Yale which previously had been also rans.
Top programs do include more recruits these days because players leave early, but the other side of the coin is that 4-year players that want an Ivy League education really have an incentive these days to figure out the financial aid side. The enhanced Ivy competition makes it harder to dominate, but I am not sure college basketball has changed that much when you limit the question to top academic programs that do not compete for NBA bound prospects.
Edited by andybech on 01-10-22 04:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-10-22 04:25 PM - Post#333029
In response to Mike Porter
They're terrible on a national level, no doubt--but so are we--we have proven that. I think the entire League is terrible. So what we are talking about is terribility on an Ivy basis. And there it is pretty clear that CU can beat anyone in this League if they are not shooting well.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23360
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-10-22 04:56 PM - Post#333033
In response to palestra38
Everyone sucks
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Donahue Recruiting
01-10-22 05:01 PM - Post#333035
In response to palestra38
They're terrible on a national level, no doubt--but so are we--we have proven that. I think the entire League is terrible. So what we are talking about is terribility on an Ivy basis. And there it is pretty clear that CU can beat anyone in this League if they are not shooting well.
Haha, okay fair enough and I can't argue with that.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-10-22 05:26 PM - Post#333040
In response to Mike Porter
Ike Nweke, the reigning Ivy League player of the week, played in only 3 of Columbia's non-conference games.
That is not to say that Penn fans should not be disappointed in a home loss, but Columbia would not currently be ranked at Pomeroy #345 if Nweke had been available for the entire season.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-10-22 05:30 PM - Post#333043
In response to Stuart Suss
Of course, with no fans, the home court advantage is largely illusory. One thing that makes me shudder is playing almost all our home games in an empty building but coming back to playing road games before hostile crowds.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1896
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-10-22 05:32 PM - Post#333044
In response to palestra38
I have not followed the other league teams closely, but CU really looked like the better team out there. They looked more physical and athletic, and they didn't look disadvantaged in skill. They executed their plays more crisply and out hustled us. It wasn't until the end with some Monroe defense that we looked like we might be the better team. Surprising that their Pomeroy is that low.
I'm willing to write off a loss due to a bad shooting day, but we weren't even creating great shots. I think our offense has a good design, but it is executed at 0.8x speed and the passes often aren't hitting their mark. I think playing the motion faster will actually open up better cutter separation and defensive confusion to make the passing better - but I don't think the team has the trust in each other yet. This doesn't seem to be a fully Donahue-ized team yet.
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