Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 11:43 AM - Post#334144
In response to penn nation
Rough estimate from the PBP in the box score is they were together for 12 of Slajchert’s 19 minutes on court yesterday.
I'd be interested to see a breakdown here, but at least in my faulty memory Slajchert and Dingle aren't often on the court at the same time.
They shouldn't be able to do it because Slajchert is also very tough in the half court if not doubled and Charles, Smith and Martz are all very effective 3 point shooters. Problem is we often have too many other guys taking too many shots, along with giving up too many second chances. But we have a mix of players that should be very tough to beat at our level....demonstrated by a beginning to end defeat of the consensus favorite.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8313
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 11:44 AM - Post#334145
In response to TheLine
Fortunately, Yale had no more luck from 3 than Penn did. The other narrative this game supports is that this Yale team does not have its usual frontcourt depth and makes them a better matchup for Penn as was discussed pregame.
Speaking of Dingle, does anyone else see some Allen Iverson in his game beyond the jersey number?
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 12:08 PM - Post#334147
In response to Streamers
The Penn player he’s reminding me of a lot lately is Mike Jordan. At the same stage in their careers MJ was also a ball-dominant point whose biggest weakness on O was a tendency to over-penetrate and throw up a few too many low percentage, heavily-contested shots in traffic. As he matured he got a lot better at choosing his spots and angles to drive, and at involving his teammates more when those opportunities weren’t there.
Not sure MJ ever ate possessions at Dingle’s current rate, but would love to see some KenPom/Dean Oliver breakdowns of the data from that era to check that assumption.
Fortunately, Yale had no more luck from 3 than Penn did. The other narrative this game supports is that this Yale team does not have its usual frontcourt depth and makes them a better matchup for Penn as was discussed pregame.
Speaking of Dingle, does anyone else see some Allen Iverson in his game beyond the jersey number?
Edited by Chip Bayers on 01-23-22 12:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-23-22 01:23 PM - Post#334149
In response to Chip Bayers
Speaking from experience, I'm sure you are very glad to have Dingle. Every team needs someone to take over when the offense drags or the shot clock is running down. Guys like Wes Saunders and Bryce Aiken were valuable, but there is a worry about the ball sticking in that player's hands. Dingle is not a negative like Stephon Marbury or Carmelo Anthony could be, despite their talents.
I watched some of yesterday's game. Neither offense thrived, and I respectfully believe that the difference was the ability of Dingle to create vs the fact that Penn seemed to limit Swain's ability to do the same when he tried to take over.
I always valued the perspective of an outsider/opponent. It tells you what others fear and feel - make of it what you may. Without Dingle, it seems that Penn's offense is less dangerous.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 03:12 PM - Post#334152
In response to Chip Bayers
That is one way to frame it.
Another is to say that, of the 32.5 minutes that Dingle played, Slajchert was on the court for 12 of them (assuming your data are accurate).
From what I have seen this year, far more often than not, Slajchert is on the court during the first point in the game when Dingle takes a breather.
Rough estimate from the PBP in the box score is they were together for 12 of Slajchert’s 19 minutes on court yesterday.
I'd be interested to see a breakdown here, but at least in my faulty memory Slajchert and Dingle aren't often on the court at the same time.
They shouldn't be able to do it because Slajchert is also very tough in the half court if not doubled and Charles, Smith and Martz are all very effective 3 point shooters. Problem is we often have too many other guys taking too many shots, along with giving up too many second chances. But we have a mix of players that should be very tough to beat at our level....demonstrated by a beginning to end defeat of the consensus favorite.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Yal
01-23-22 03:22 PM - Post#334153
In response to Chip Bayers
Your response to my post.
"Your grasp of KenPom data and it’s meaning is terribly shallow. Do some homework."
My response to your post.
Your analysis of the data I presented was right on. Nice post!
Thanks for the lesson. Perhaps my homework will be to always look up your posts before I make another post.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Dingle passing
01-23-22 03:32 PM - Post#334155
In response to Streamers
Some relevant data
Pomeroy assist ratings in order of years
AJ, 14.1 16.8 26.5 31
There's the progress everybody wanted from him.
Jordan 13.4 17.4
Jordan is ahead of AJ as a second-year player. If he can make the huge jumps that AJ made thereafter, we will be very happy.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-23-22 03:56 PM - Post#334159
In response to UPIA1968
Haven’t had much time lately due to work and dad duties, but wanted to chime in to day yesterday was a great win and loved to see it as a fan. This team has some big holes, but the desire and effort is always there.
That said, there are some points in this thread that defy logic in my view… will share a different perspective as time permits.
One thing I want to comment on first - I’ve seen a few folks (@Penndemonium I feel like you mentioned this, correct me if wrong) imply that those fans disappointed with the state of program somehow think the players don’t play hard I completely disagree. I never see anyone questioning effort.
More thoughts to share when I can.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-23-22 04:48 PM - Post#334160
In response to Mike Porter
There was a specific comment by P38 re effort during the Princeton game. I think that was probably more a fan’s frustrated reaction to losing to Princeton more than anything else.
I think this team competes hard and keeps bouncing back from setbacks in an impressive way.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Yale
01-23-22 05:03 PM - Post#334161
In response to SomeGuy
This was my comment:
"But the lethargy of this team today and in all of our games against Princeton over the last 3 seasons is totally unacceptable. I remember when Penn would refuse to lose to Princeton. I don't see that anymore"
It was just a comment that I don't think they have the killer instinct when it comes to Princeton that Penn teams used to have---not that they are not playing hard generally. No question that it came out of frustration, but IMO, we used to play harder and with some anger against Princeton.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-23-22 06:59 PM - Post#334166
In response to AsiaSunset
I think I disagree a little here regarding offense and defense. We have an offense that has hovered right around being the best offense we’ve had since Dunphy left from a statistical standpoint relative to the rest of division one. I’m not sure the offense being even better is really the way to get where we need to be, simply because there is less room to improve.
As another poster pointed out, in a small six game sample size we have been playing better defensively in conference (OCC we had the #2 offense and the #7 defense in the league, while in league we have been #2 in defense so far). Playing Smith more has made a big difference on the defensive end. Regardless, defense is the area where there is significant room to improve overall.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 08:54 PM - Post#334170
In response to LyleGold
But the issue (and I think what nychoops is kind of getting at with his question about “what that means to you”) is that the same efforts and choices by Jordan may lead to both the “good” open shots and the “bad” forced shots. So you may not get one without the other. If you get 13 of 24, in a sense it doesn’t matter if he tossed the 11 missed shots backwards over his head into the stands or had them go in and out — it’s still a good shooting percentage. When you say Jordan probably missed shots during Yale’s run, well sure his usage rate makes that more likely. But whether it is the team or Dingle going 13 of 24 with the natural ebbs and flows that entails, it’s still just the flow of basketball (and reasonably efficient basketball). I’ll take that every day.
All that said, don’t take any of that as saying Jordan and the staff shouldn’t be thinking about how to get even more efficient. I assume he will continue to add wrinkles and develop every year — just like AJ, Rosen, Ugonna, MJ, Allen, and Maloney did. Dingle is already so good offensively that, as with some of those other guys, the improvements may not be statistically that stark (or even noticeable at all) his junior and senior years. But I fully expect he’ll keep adding to his game.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 09:23 PM - Post#334173
In response to SomeGuy
You make a bunch of good points, especially the examples of former Quakers who continued to develop their games over their four years. I already commented on the AJ analogy, who received some of the same criticism I’ve aimed at Dingle at a similar point in his career. I just can’t accept people saying, ”Leave Jordan alone, this is what you get with him. He is our best player after all. Oh, and let’s fire the coach since our gallant comeback against Princeton fell short.”
There’s ample margin for growth in Dingle’s game, and I imagine he would agree with that. If he does fulfill his potential, he’ll join that elite group you named (even being near the top of it) and he’ll bring the team along with him. I’m looking forward to seeing the first concrete evidence of it in March.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 11:00 PM - Post#334175
In response to LyleGold
Why would you rather criticize a 20 year old than the coach? That’s a weird mindset
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Yale
01-23-22 11:06 PM - Post#334176
In response to Jeff2sf
Nice try. I won’t bite.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-23-22 11:13 PM - Post#334177
In response to LyleGold
I don’t care if you bite or not. You’re being aggressively weird critic of the 31 point scorer vs the coach making hundreds of thousands of dollars for us to finish kenpom 200+.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-24-22 08:45 AM - Post#334180
In response to Jeff2sf
The issue isn't whether Dingle can improve, it's whether he has taken difficult shots because he wants his points on a great team (see, McDonald, Keven) or because he is the only one who can get his own shot. And the obvious answer is the latter. If there is an area in which we need to improve, it's in the ball movement and setting picks for some of the catch and shoot players we have, notably Jonah Charles and Martz. That is a coaching issue, certainly not one for Dingle. And we had that same trouble in the second half against Yale, but got bailed out by Dingle and Slajchert floating through the lane.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-24-22 09:13 AM - Post#334181
In response to Jeff2sf
Says the author of the single most weirdly aggressive post regarding that 20 year old player (which began a whole weirdly aggressive thread).
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-24-22 09:39 AM - Post#334183
In response to SomeGuy
How dare you. I have ALWAYS made time out of my busy schedule to criticize the crappy job Steve has done. The good news is when you’re on a downward slope as this team has been for four years there’s plenty of blame to go around
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-24-22 10:11 AM - Post#334185
In response to Jeff2sf
and honestly, i still have no idea what to make of Jordan. He looks like one of the best ever at Penn. But his stats do not back that up... but his usage does...shrug.
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