iogyhufi
Masters Student
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02-06-22 01:26 AM - Post#335555
Well, now seems about as good a time as any to start thinking about the next game. Yale travels to Lavietes for a mid-week rematch from just four days prior. It's really, really hard to beat a team on both legs of a back-to-back, especially when the second leg is at their place. Harvard knows that they need this win desperately to stay in the hunt for the fourth seed in the ILT, and they're coming off an emotional loss, so I'd expect them to bring their best in the second leg.
Yale will need to play an exceptionally sharp game in order to win this. They'll need the intensity from last game coupled with much greater care in hanging onto the ball at a minimum. I think a win is doable for the Bulldogs, but it's a tall order indeed.
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ToothlessTiger
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02-06-22 11:09 AM - Post#335567
In response to iogyhufi
My opinion is that Yale will be slight favorite on the road. Harvard has a great chance to cover a 1 to 3 point spread.
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ToothlessTiger
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02-06-22 11:11 AM - Post#335568
In response to ToothlessTiger
Jones and Swain do not want to play Harvard in the tourney at Cambridge. Winning Wednesday helps very much in that regard.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-06-22 01:17 PM - Post#335590
In response to ToothlessTiger
Crazy, tough and sloppy game last night. Without Ledlum, Yale got its way too much near the basket.
Yale's forwards outscored Harvard's 24-14 and Yale outrebounded Harvard 37-29.
If Ledlum returns, and Harvard makes the tournament at Lavietes, that should change.
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iogyhufi
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02-06-22 06:10 PM - Post#335631
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I've wondered what's up with Ledlum. Not sure if he'll come back at all, but certainly if he does that changes the picture. I understand that Forbes hasn't been back for very long but he looked quite poor yesterday.
To me, the key on Wednesday will be who hits shots from outside. Neither team did yesterday (obviously), but doing so changes the calculus on defense a lot. This has in recent history been a real problem for Yale, when, e.g., Djuricic is allowed to get hot and goes like 4-6 from 3. Fortunately, this didn't happen yesterday (aside from two Lesmond threes that were actually defended well), but it's an ever-present threat. Granted, Harvard has fewer outside threats than they recently have had.
Yale has held every team they've faced so far to a very low 3P%, but mrjames is of the opinion that this is the sort of thing that is inherently random and not sustainable. I'm not sure that I agree, but I suppose we'll have to see.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-06-22 10:53 PM - Post#335657
In response to iogyhufi
An announcer on a game a week ago said that Ledlum had been playing with his injury most of the year
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Harvard II
02-07-22 10:53 AM - Post#335691
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
An announcer on a game a week ago said that Ledlum had been playing with his injury most of the year
Injured or not, Ledlum scored 17 in an 11 point loss to Brown a month ago. Brown! Those Harvard fans who are dreaming of a Ledlum miracle if they somehow manage to grab the bottom seed in that little band box of theirs are probably living in fantasy land. Given the rematch this past weekend in Providence, they may be better off without him.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-08-22 12:22 AM - Post#335791
In response to LyleGold
Not quite. Brown won because it shot like it hasn’t all year (15-26 on 3’s). Kudos to Brown.
Harvard was a deep squad. But without Forbes, Ajogbor, Pitcher & Hemmings played without a frontcourt. Remove the entire 4 man depth chart from any other team and likely they won’t do as well as Harvard did OOC.
Ledlum was the top Ivy rebounder and was a leading scorer. Remove him from what remains and it’s a big impact. Lose your starting PG (Tretout) as well and it doesn’t get better. The Crimson have been relying on freshmen who weren’t anticipated to be seeing the court. On the final possessions against Yale we had 3 freshmen, including Sam Silverstein and Evan Nelson. Frankly, for this team to have a shot at the Ivy Tournament is remarkable. Let Forbes continue to play himself into shape with a healthy Ledlum and Tretout and my money would be on the Crimson in the tournament.
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iogyhufi
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02-08-22 01:38 AM - Post#335798
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Yeah, um, I would not want my mouth to write checks my giving-up-forty-points-in -ten-minutes-to-Cornell team might find troublesome to cash. Lest we forget, Penn beat Harvard by four at Lavietes in a game where Harvard shot 11-20 from the line, and that was with a 31 point night from Jordan Dingle. Somehow, I suspect the re-addition of Forbes will help the defense (even though subbing out Catchings for Ledlum would probably hurt it) in a potential rematch. I, for one, am rooting quite strongly for Harvard's opponents down the stretch precisely because I don't like the idea of playing a healthy Harvard at home (say that five times fast).
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-08-22 08:55 AM - Post#335807
In response to iogyhufi
Your final sentence was exactly my point.
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iogyhufi
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02-08-22 09:49 AM - Post#335810
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Oh, I was agreeing with you. Penn (much like everyone else in the League) is not nearly good enough to think that they could easily beat any of the teams in the Ivy League (as their home loss to Columbia proves). If nothing else, road games are extremely difficult, and I would not want to play a team with two players like Kirkwood and Ledlum in a true road game if I could avoid it.
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palestra38
Professor
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02-08-22 10:03 AM - Post#335811
In response to iogyhufi
Has any Penn fan here suggested otherwise?
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Harvard II
02-08-22 11:10 AM - Post#335819
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Not quite. Brown won because it shot like it hasn’t all year (15-26 on 3’s). Kudos to Brown.
Obviously I was being facetious about "maybe H is better off without Ledlum". I'm not being facetious, however, about how Ledlum's presence (and 17 point contribution) didn't keep H from losing to Brown by 11. Every team has had to deal with injuries, including Penn who has remade its squad and style of play with great success. The loss of its two main big men forced it to reimagine its offense and redeploy its remaining big man, JuCo transfer Moshkovitz, in a totally different, but vastly more effective, manner. Penn has subsequently tapped into its bench for another big, freshman Laczkowski, who has been a versatile addition inside and outside in Penn's current streak.
By the way, I AM NOT SAYING THAT WANG AND LORCA LLOYED ARE EQUAL TO LEDLUM.
One other point, Forbes played and was generally effective in Penn's win at Lavietes. It's not totally clear that Iogy recognizes that with his comment about Forbes's "re-addition" in the rematch.
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iogyhufi
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Re: Harvard II
02-08-22 11:31 AM - Post#335826
In response to LyleGold
Oh, I knew. My argument, though poorly articulated, was that Forbes will get better as he gets back up to speed, since that was his second game all year and his first in two weeks.
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LyleGold
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Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Harvard II
02-08-22 12:20 PM - Post#335831
In response to iogyhufi
Okay, got it. That raises the question of how effective will Ledlum be if, and when, he returns? It's hard to imagine he won't need several games to shake the rust off. I think it is even tougher for a guy of his build to carry that weight without being in game condition, as compared to someone like Forbes who is much lighter.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
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02-08-22 01:13 PM - Post#335836
In response to LyleGold
I started the season hoping that Forbes, Ajogbor, Pitcher, Hemmings and Nelson would return in time to assure Crimson a tournament spot and be back in form for the tournament.
I then added Tretout and Ledlum.
Might well be that Harvard is healthy enough to potentially be the best by Tournament time if we have a starting lineup of Kirkwood, Ledlum, Forbes , Sakota and Catchings/Lesmond. It is not unlikely though, that the timing of their return and subsequent effectiveness won't happen in time for the team to get there.
Of course, other teams have injuries. I'm not at all attempting to gauge the value and lost impact of those players.
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palestra38
Professor
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02-08-22 01:21 PM - Post#335837
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I'll certainly grant you this---while all teams have injuries, Harvard has managed to put together over the last 5 seasons the most significant injuries in Towns, Aiken and now Ledlum.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
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Reg: 11-22-04
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02-08-22 01:28 PM - Post#335840
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Of course, other teams have injuries. I'm not at all attempting to gauge the value and lost impact of those players.
I know you're not, but others are - quite contentiously.
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yoyo
Senior
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02-09-22 12:43 PM - Post#335901
In response to LyleGold
GO HARVARD BEAT YALE
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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02-09-22 03:06 PM - Post#335911
In response to yoyo
The fascinating thing about those injuries under current rules is that it allows players to stay 'active' well beyond their Ivy League years!
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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02-09-22 05:15 PM - Post#335919
In response to yoyo
GO HARVARD BEAT YALE
Well, if that should happen, I'm sure Penn would enjoy playing Harvard on the road in the first round.
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iogyhufi
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02-09-22 10:15 PM - Post#335986
In response to iogyhufi
Well, that was not one for the books. An uncharacteristically poor game from Swain overcome with yeomanlike team defense and great performances from Gabbidon, Jarvis, and Knowling. Yale shut down Kirkwood well, but you have to give credit to Forbes for playing his hardest the whole game and finishing well.
Love the progress I've seen from the Yale bigs recently, and it's a fantastic sign that the Bulldogs can win without contributions from Swain. Yale is now on the inside track for the 1 seed, and Harvard is on the outside looking in.
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bradley 
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02-09-22 10:33 PM - Post#335989
In response to iogyhufi
Not pretty for sure and Yale seems to give up big leads too easily but Coach Jones' teams just have so much grit and toughness.
They are not a great team, probably not a very good team, but they are simply tough, physically and mentally. If they get to the Big Dance, they could give some Power 5 team a tough time in Round 1 although height will be a problem.
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james
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02-09-22 11:16 PM - Post#335990
In response to bradley
the defense was great. swain got some decent looks. they didnt go down. thats ball. and bruner atkinson mason etc struggled there.
yale is a flawed team. but at this juncture thats good enough. we'll see.
i do agree no one wants to play a healthy Harvard. recruiting rankings while not perfect are directionally accurate.
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james
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02-09-22 11:17 PM - Post#335991
In response to james
paul put up 17/15 tonight on Louisville. he was acc player of the week. thats pretty cool. and perspective.
its hard to beat Harvard on the road. if you play for Yale.
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penn nation
Professor
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02-09-22 11:20 PM - Post#335992
In response to james
its hard to beat Harvard on the road. if you play for Yale.
Penn: Hold my beer.
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james
Masters Student
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02-09-22 11:26 PM - Post#335993
In response to james
i also liked running the ball screen game with tighter spacing on the arc. it lead to better options.
i wish james would have iso'd gabiddon at the point with swain off ball. jalen was feeling it and swain didnt have much room.
but the speed of mbeng and gabiddon was breaking down the defense which was a pleasant sign for yale. anyway thats a decided shift to tighten it up as post spacing not as importnat without two primary bigs.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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02-10-22 01:40 AM - Post#335999
In response to james
I dunno if I necessarily agree that Yale doesn't have two primary bigs at this point. EJ Jarvis and Matt Knowling played together for the lion's share of the minutes today (aided by Isaiah's unfortunate foul trouble) and they've looked pretty good together. We'll see whether that's something that crystallizes as a permanent fixture or not, but I've been really impressed with the strides EJ has made recently.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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02-10-22 01:43 AM - Post#336000
In response to iogyhufi
Also, lost in the press is that Yale has won both of these Harvard games while they've shot 20% or worse from 3. Good teams find ways to win, and this team is proving its toughness.
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james
Masters Student
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02-10-22 08:21 AM - Post#336005
In response to iogyhufi
yale moves knowling around well on the perimeter like they did bruner with a 4 out 1 in offense utilizing ball screens. I call it a ball screen offense. This is not to say Jarvis doesn’t move from the basket but technically he’s the 5 like Atkinson. Otherwise it’s kind of positionless though yes knowling is looking to slip and post bc that’s his strength. It’s most ideal on a switch but there were some chess games happening there given how good he is on block
2 primary bigs would be 3 out 2 in offense. we ran that in the 90s. Simplifying terms .
My team runs this now
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james
Masters Student
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02-10-22 08:33 AM - Post#336008
In response to james
sorry referring to the team I help with in atl.
We run more the yale 90s offense. Not bc kuchen knew what he was doing but more bc we have size and two bigs with limited range but huge size 6’10+ to exploit.
I am familiar enough to teach it bc at 6’10 I also had 4 ft range. we didn’t decide ourselves in the old days
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james
Masters Student
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02-10-22 08:33 AM - Post#336010
In response to james
Deceive
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
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02-10-22 09:30 AM - Post#336021
In response to james
Harvard did a nice job on Dwain. That kid who has a brother at Brown gloved him for much of the game. Impressive
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