SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-18-22 02:03 AM - Post#339491
In response to TigerFan
Also, if Tosan can develop even just a decent 33% trey game when stationary his ability to drive to the hoop will be greatly enhanced.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy
03-18-22 05:51 AM - Post#339492
In response to Albert08
The POY award is an objective standard for who is the better player? OK.
The objective fact is that Tosan had much better players around him this year. We'll see next year who is the better player when Tosan, as Dingle had to do this year, must do it on his own far more often.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-22 07:51 AM - Post#339496
In response to TigerFan
And develop a three point shot?
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-18-22 08:09 AM - Post#339501
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
The POY is the coach's view of who is the most outstanding player.
The fact that they unanimously believed that was Tosan is
probably of at least equal importance to your perceptive
observation that he is not a great free throw shooter. You should
probably petition the League to make that a requirement for the award.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-22 08:24 AM - Post#339503
In response to LocalTiger
Naw, you are simply spouting your opinion as to what a subjective award represents.
I think we will see him exposed next year without guys who were Ivy superstars playing next to him. That 56% FT and 11% 3 point shooting will mean teams will back off from him and foul him if he gets to the hoop. Tosan is a really good player. He's not as good as Jordan Dingle.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-18-22 08:29 AM - Post#339504
In response to palestra38
They’re both nightmares if you try to defend them one on one without any help.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-18-22 08:34 AM - Post#339505
In response to palestra38
The League says POY is most outstanding player.
You had previously claimed it was an MVP standard,
but you we're (objectively) wrong. Tosan defends better, passes better, rebounds better and makes his teammates better.
All eight guys who get paid to judge and develop talent
saw that this year. Tosan was better than Dingle.
Maybe your guy improves more this Summer, but I doubt it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-22 08:45 AM - Post#339506
In response to LocalTiger
Your problem (other than arrogance) is that you continually claim that subjective awards are objective. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word objective.
But we all know your opinion and you know mine. We'll see next year just how dominant Tosan is without the seniors Princeton has graduated.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-18-22 08:53 AM - Post#339507
In response to palestra38
I did not say it was objective. I said I thought the opinion of 8
professionals probably had more value than yours. You disagree.
And that makes me arrogant? Interesting.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-22 09:16 AM - Post#339508
In response to LocalTiger
You used the word objectively. It's your opinion. It's my opinion. We disagree. Couching your opinion as objective fact is arrogance.
But we'll see next year, which is what I said at the start.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-18-22 09:58 AM - Post#339512
In response to palestra38
I did not use that word. You have repeatedly declared your opinion
(e.g.- Tosan had a better supporting cast, an opinion I may share
but clearly an opinion) as objective fact. That is arrogance, as is
ignoring the opinion of all the coaches.
in fact, this started with your declaration that Penn "has the best player in the League." Pointing out that that opinion was not
shared by any of the coaches, even Donahue, is not arrogant.
it is just inconvenient to your argument.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-22 10:05 AM - Post#339513
In response to LocalTiger
4 posts up, but you're veering to troll country, so end of discussion.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-18-22 10:12 AM - Post#339514
In response to palestra38
I said you were objectively wrong that the League described POY
as an MVP. It says it is the "most outstanding player." I am
not saying their voter is objective, but you were wrong about
what they were opining about.
Now, end of discussion.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy
03-18-22 02:50 PM - Post#339526
In response to LocalTiger
So, to be clear, MVP of the league regularly goes to the player on the first place team that his coach nominates. Each other coach can nominate a player for the award as well. You aren't nominated for the award unless you are pretty roundly thought of as one of the very best players in the league. I am sure the players at the table were probably:
Tosan
Dingle
Swain
Kirkwood
Each of those players were unanimous 1st team all Ivy selections. I don't think it's a stretch to say if any one of those teams finished the regular season in solo first place, then that player (listed above) would have likely been a unanimous choice for MVP. There is a chance (like 2 years ago) that there could have been a co-mvp, but that has usually gone to a senior from a non first place team (AJ Brodeur most recently).
Unanimous 1st team All Ivy is a much better metric of who the coaches think are the best players than just MVP, which goes to the player on the first place team from that unanimous group.
Tosan is an outstanding player and deserving of the award in the way that it is handed out (being the unanimous player from the first place team). It is not an objective determination of who is best among those 4 players.
Edited by PennFan10 on 03-18-22 02:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy
03-18-22 03:23 PM - Post#339529
In response to PennFan10
I am not sure that narrative is consistent with the facts.
Jenkins, Earl,Austin, Barnett, Forte,Hummer and Rosen come to mind as exceptions to the "it always comes from the first place team " rule.
Also, if you look art the press releases, they do not generally
say the POY (not MVP) was a unanimous choice, although he is generally unanimous first team.
I think they are separates votes, and I assume the coaches take both seriously.
Edited by LocalTiger on 03-18-22 03:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy
03-18-22 04:49 PM - Post#339538
In response to PennFan10
In the last 12 years the 1st place team had the POY 10 times. The two times it didn't happen were Hummer in 2013 and Rosen in 2012. Both were seniors on the 2nd place team (finishing 1 game out of first).
I think it's fair to say that POY almost always goes to the best player on the 1st place team. Giving it to a player other than that is the exception, as you have noted.
Again, Tosan is a great player, deserving of the award. I think it's fair to say Swain, Kirkwood or Dingle would have gotten the award if their team finished first THIS year. And that would have been just as deserving. That's not a knock on Tosan.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-19-22 10:20 AM - Post#339573
In response to PennFan10
I certainly agree that a player on the first place team has an edge,
all other things equal. Where were may diner is believing that
unanimity for POY is not as meaningful as it is for first team status.
Reading the press releases each. year, it seems common that POY is also unanimous first team, but I do not see others announced as unanimous POY.
We will probably never know exactly how the balloting
is done, but my assumption nis each coach fills out a
ballot, and they do not consult about it. If that is so,
all of the coaches agreeing this year is significant.
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PeteD
Masters Student
Posts: 556
Loc: California
Reg: 03-13-07
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Re: Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy
03-20-22 10:41 PM - Post#339682
In response to SecS3
I think that neither Mitchell or Chen being at least HM is a joke. Are you telling me the coaches in this league really believe that Mullaney and Mbanefo are better players? If so, then it's no wonder no one can beat Princeton 'cause they don't know talent when it beats them.
Agree 100%, especially Chen… who was arguably the best player on the court when Princeton visited Levien.
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