dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-13-22 09:25 PM - Post#339083
Pr-Cr: 1,160
Y-Pa: 1,250
Pr-Y: 1,350
So much for creating interest. Princeton will be better next year, if for no other reason than some students will actually show up, but then the four years after that are Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, and Columbia. At this point, you'd have to say that the odds approach certainty that at least one of those four will not make the men's cut, and it's probably at least 50-50 that two or more of them won't be present. For that matter, since B, Cr, and D are currently the three worst women's teams, the odds of at least one of those three not making either cut are pretty good. We could be looking at some really embarrassing turnouts in the next few years; the only consolation with that is given the idiotic scheduling, no one will be watching anyway.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-13-22 09:43 PM - Post#339090
In response to dperry
Perspective:
Official seating capacity is 1,636 (smallest in the IL), and they couldn't even reach that.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-13-22 10:26 PM - Post#339102
In response to penn nation
Who is ‘they’?
The fans of Penn, Cornell, Princeton and Yale apparently
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Tournament Attendances
03-13-22 10:39 PM - Post#339104
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Nor the local Harvard/Boston community, where no travel was needed.
Attendance for the Princeton-Harvard women's game: 889.
"They" is the tourney hosts.
That's Harvard. Er, Allston.
Edited by penn nation on 03-13-22 10:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 09:25 AM - Post#339129
In response to penn nation
Let's face it---it's ridiculous to charge $50/$75 each for a "day-night" Ivy league tournament setup.
Play the games at a minimum 5000 seat arena near whichever school has home court that year and charge $35/50 for a doubleheader and people will attend. Moreover, playing the tournament a week later than it should be played at the beginning of Spring Break means you get zero students.
It just amazes me how the Ivy League created a concept of Ivy Madness to stoke a Kumbaya vision of Ivy students and alums sitting together and drinking mead by the fire after a day of hard competition among our alma maters and we ended up (as usual for the Ivies) insisting on fairness and equality in having the opportunity to host, which negates everything the Tournament was intended to be. But it's typical. There is no reason this could not have been played at BU, the Yale tournament at Bridgeport or Fairfield and Brown's at the Dunk. Charge less and promote more. Playing at Lavietes at a price no one but an Ivy fanatic will pay and playing on Selection Sunday to get ESPNU is counterproductive.
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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03-14-22 09:31 AM - Post#339131
In response to penn nation
First Friday of spring break. Tough to get students to engage. But, point taken.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 12:28 PM - Post#339149
In response to digamma
To me the attendance confirms the obvious: the tournament is only a destination for most when convenient. Also, students don't attend at the start of their spring break. They likely only attend at the end of spring break and only when on campus.
I was clear for years that Penn had the fans only because the location was convenient and because it was held on the weekend that students returned from break (no conflicts, HW, etc.). This weekend seems to have proved my point.
Harvard men weren't in the tournment, otherwise Lavietes would have been sold out for the Harvard contests. Imagine if Penn didn't make it in and the cavernous Palestra had 1,200 fans? Holding the tournament in an outlying southern most venue would be exposed for what it was. This could happen at Dartmouth, Ithaca and likely Providence as well in the coming years. Jadwin next year won't be a problem if Princeton and/or Penn make it in. Columbia will benefit from being in NYC with tons of alums.
Holding the tournament at the Palestra was deceiving and inequitable. Holding it at a school that doesn't participate is simply foolish.
Holding it when students are on break is bad, but is it possible to fix that.
I think what we've now experienced proves that the #1 seed should host the tournament. I know there are logistical issues, but are they that difficult or isn't it worth it to deal with them? If you want to diminish the logistical issues, finish the regular season a week earlier - giving fans two weeks to plan to attend.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-14-22 12:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 12:52 PM - Post#339150
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
The Harvard-Yale playoff game at the Palestra was a sellout. The reason the Palestra drew over 5000 for the Ivy Tournament the 2 years it was there is not because of Penn nearly as much as it is the Palestra. It's the only major league arena in the Ivies and its an attraction by itself. Philadelphia is also a much cheaper city to visit than Boston and has tons of hotel rooms. I spent well over $600 this weekend---I don't think that would fly with many fans unless you go back the original idea which was that of an Ivy social event with actual events planned.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 02:57 PM - Post#339167
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Imagine if Penn didn't make it in and the cavernous Palestra had 1,200 fans? Holding the tournament in an outlying southern most venue would be exposed for what it was.
If it was in the Palestra and Penn wasn't in it, the attendance would be down but it would be a lot more than 1,200. Too many basketball fans around Philly and NY want to see quality games in an historic venue. Also, the many alums in NYC can easily and inexpensively get to the Palestra. It would be over 3,000 easy, which is half capacity. No one wants to watch basketball in a glorified HS gym in Cambridge.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 03:27 PM - Post#339170
In response to PennFan10
..again, at a much higher price because of the limited number of seats.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-14-22 04:00 PM - Post#339177
In response to palestra38
We definitely disagree.
Back in 2018 I reported here that it seemed like over 80% of fans for the final were from Penn. It was actually likely higher. I noted that the student section was full on that Sunday, but not Saturday, as Penn's spring break was ending.
My family has attended all previous tournaments. The Palestra and Philly was not a destination and isn't a destination for most fans. This is not a knock on your Cathedral, although the mere thought that, all things being equal, fans would watch the same game at Philly/Palestra but not Boston/Lavietes is exemplifies hubris.
It's all about the location/distance, not the arena. We attend games at the Palestra the same way we do Jadwin and Levien. If Harvard is playing and the location is convenient we try and go. That's why we don't travel to away games at Cornell and Dartmouth, and likely explains the disappointing attendance at Lavietes by fans of the participants. In 2019, Yale had a strong majority of fans for that final, likely for the same exact reason. For anyone north of NYC, the Palestra is as inconvenient to them as Hanover is to Philly natives.
You are missing the obvious confirmation this weekend provided. Penn fans didn't go to Lavietes on Saturday, and not enough Yale and Princeton fans traveled on Sunday. How is that Harvard's fault? It's the largely anti-climactic nature of the tournament. If the game had been at the Palestra but not included Penn or nearby Princeton, that venue would have likely drawn a similar crowd.
As this was the first year without a host participant, what we learned this year is that Ivy fans generally don't travel far for this particular event. The arena is irrelevant.
The example of Havard vs Yale in a single game playoff at the Palestra supports my view. Same with Harvard vs Princeton at Yale. Fans do travel for the rare single game playoff. Possibly, the uncertainty of surviving the semifinal is a negative. Alternatively, the redundancy and recent vintage of the tournament works against it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 04:10 PM - Post#339179
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Your last point may be correct---that the special nature of the one-game playoff brought in more fans, but you essentially ignore almost everything else I said. The timing of the tournament, the pricing of the tournament, the lack of any organized Ivy social opportunities (except for VIPs---what a surprise?), are the most important factor--they represent an utter absence of marketing for the Tournament. Without marketing, attendance is going to be bad.
But you must be kidding with Lavietes. If you don't think having to buy 2 tickets to see the doubleheader depressed the crowd, and that people won't want to travel to the Palestra for the Palestra--hell, we got far more national attention there because it was the Palestra---is what I have come to expect from Harvard fans, who don't show up for their own games so that the fundraising to build a new 4000 seat building was diverted to other causes. For Harvard, a basketball team is almost like a toy. Who cares if anyone is there? Frankly, the fact that we played the Tournament there was an embarrassment. It's a high school gym--no room to move even behind the bleachers---1 set of water fountains, 2 rest rooms (small ones). I just don't know what Harvard was thinking not building a real arena worthy of the Harvard name.
But we can disagree on that to a point--the Ivy Tournament could be a success if they played it a week earlier, brought students and alums up to see it, and actually marketed it to succeed. The problem with the Tournament is that certain schools insisted on "fairness" so that we will play in 6 buildings ill-suited to host a tournament. Better just to play it in rotation at Rutgers, Bridgeport and BU.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 04:13 PM - Post#339181
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I would say your viewpoint is accurate...for YOU. I can tell you with certainty many Philly area people go to the Palestra to see games because it's the Palestra. I bet if you counted the sell out from the H v Y playoff there were many of these Philly area attendees.
I agree with your general point, it's not about the Arena. The Palestra is different. It has it's own following. That's not hubris, it's simple fact. I have met dozens of people not affiliated with Penn that go to games there just to be in the building. If its a game with NCAA March Madness implications, there will be a strong contingent of those fans. That's just not the case in Cambridge or really anywhere else.
Consider this article, which is posted on the NCAA Men's basketball website (from Feb 2021):
https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/a rticle/2...
I promise we aren't making this up.
Edited by PennFan10 on 03-14-22 04:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-14-22 04:25 PM - Post#339183
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
You are missing the obvious confirmation this weekend provided. Penn fans didn't go to Lavietes on Saturday, and not enough Yale and Princeton fans traveled on Sunday. How is that Harvard's fault?
Well, for one thing, it begs the question of why the insistence of rotating the site each year among the 8 teams if only a couple of them are going to attract a crowd. I mean, goodness gracious, Lavietes has the smallest capacity of any Ivy and Harvard couldn't even fill it.
As was mentioned earlier, the Palestra got a very nice crowd for tiebreakers and ILT even when Penn wasn't involved.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-14-22 04:30 PM - Post#339186
In response to penn nation
I think we are all missing the bigger point, which is the decision of where to hold the tournament has little to nothing to do with the size or potential size of the crowd.
It's about showcasing the IL and the different venues (and probably about fairness as well)
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-14-22 04:33 PM - Post#339187
In response to PennFan10
Showcasing Lavietes?
Showing the majority of Ivy venues is actually a problem, not something to brag about.
In terms of the fairness (and showcasing) issue, as many have said before, there are any number of other venues such as Bridgeport that would do much more justice to both issues than the current arrangement.
I think we are all missing the bigger point, which is the decision of where to hold the tournament has little to nothing to do with the size or potential size of the crowd.
It's about showcasing the IL and the different venues (and probably about fairness as well)
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-14-22 05:32 PM - Post#339188
In response to penn nation
No, you missed the point. Showcasing Ivy campuses. The venue doesn't matter on TV. ESPN can make any gym look packed.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 11:24 PM - Post#339222
In response to palestra38
The Harvard-Yale playoff game at the Palestra was a sellout.
Attendance was actually 5,256. However, as I've pointed out before, that's still more than all but one day of the tournament so far despite having fewer teams, much less notice, and not being convenient to either team (heck, I think there were more students of both schools at that game than there were for the tournament games in the Palestra.)
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-14-22 11:27 PM - Post#339223
In response to PennFan10
No, you missed the point. Showcasing Ivy campuses. The venue doesn't matter on TV. ESPN can make any gym look packed.
However, a.) there really isn't much opportunity to do that in the midst of the game, and b.) going up against the big conferences on the final weekend, no one is watching anyway.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Tournament Attendances
03-14-22 11:44 PM - Post#339225
In response to palestra38
Let's face it---it's ridiculous to charge $50/$75 each for a "day-night" Ivy league tournament setup.
Play the games at a minimum 5000 seat arena near whichever school has home court that year and charge $35/50 for a doubleheader and people will attend. Moreover, playing the tournament a week later than it should be played at the beginning of Spring Break means you get zero students.
It just amazes me how the Ivy League created a concept of Ivy Madness to stoke a Kumbaya vision of Ivy students and alums sitting together and drinking mead by the fire after a day of hard competition among our alma maters and we ended up (as usual for the Ivies) insisting on fairness and equality in having the opportunity to host, which negates everything the Tournament was intended to be. But it's typical. There is no reason this could not have been played at BU, the Yale tournament at Bridgeport or Fairfield and Brown's at the Dunk. Charge less and promote more. Playing at Lavietes at a price no one but an Ivy fanatic will pay and playing on Selection Sunday to get ESPNU is counterproductive.
The problem with all of this, however, is that to make a neutral site successful and to create a collective league atmosphere (even assuming the latter is even doable--as far as I can tell, only the HBCU conferences really try for it), requires hard work, marketing skill, and money. I see no evidence that the Ivies have any desire to expend any such effort or resources on this, or that they have the talent in marketing required. They talk a great game, but they are not putting any money (literally or figuratively) where their mouths are.
With respect to students, while competing with spring break doesn't help, I'm pretty sure that you're never going to have significant numbers of students coming from the teams that aren't home. There aren't that many students right now who are even that interested, and many of the ones who are can't afford it. If you're concerned about fading student interest, and there is very good reason to be concerned, devaluing the regular season games that are actually easy for them to attend is a bad idea.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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