Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4481
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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10-02-23 12:30 AM - Post#358191
In response to palestra38
You obviously know nothing about what happened other than the propaganda you read and absorb. It's really unfortunate that a Penn grad is so ignorant.
I'm there every day. It's safe--no one got hurt. Trying to hurl racist memes because a bunch of criminals used yet another senseless police execution of a person driving while black to commit crimes is just the MAGA thing to do. I won't stand for it, no matter which board you or Stan post in.
Apologies... I politely asked Jon to take his non-Penn Basketball opinions to the Off-Topic Board where they belong. But Jon cannot help himself, and insists on making personal attacks.
So... This from Channel 6... Certainly no MAGA Right Wing news outlet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1OSyIICTCc
If you watch, you will hear the reporter say that the looting is not tied to the earlier court decision, as Jon falsely claims.
It's sad that Jon not just excuses the looting that's been going in in Philly, but tries to blame MAGA. Very sad.
And again... Apologies for posting on what should be Penn Basketball related. I just don't like being called ignorant. And I enjoy pointing out when Jon is wrong. If anyone is interested in seeing how often I prove Jon is wrong, I invite you to go to the Off Topic Board. It is often quite entertaining: I cite evidence that refutes Jon, and he responds by calling me a racist and a Nazi.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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10-02-23 03:02 AM - Post#358192
In response to Cvonvorys
Gents, the political parties and media are dividing us and making us forget what unites us - the desire to live peacefully, have fulfilling lives with our families, build prosperity, and have the Quakers win an NCAA championship.
No political party or ideology is adequately addressing the problems with our team and the drought in the NCAAs. We need a Free The Quakers ticket in this next election.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-23 08:50 AM - Post#358193
In response to Cvonvorys
You are the most ignorant person with whom I have ever had the misfortune to personally have dealings who claims to have been a Penn student. I'm happy not to discuss these issues here, but I did not raise them, Stan did. My reply was to Stan and the fact that you repeatedly have the need to mis-state that I initiated the conversation indicates that you did not bother to read his post but just my reply. No one asked for your opinion, nor do you have the capacity to understand that MAGA nuts like you who parrot propaganda such as the Demorat Cities run by thugs are causing "good people" to leave, have no idea at all how Gen Z students think. They are smart enough to know that crime is not the major issue in our society, but racist and sexist reactionaries trying to drag us back to the 1950s are. But really, who cares what you think?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-23 08:53 AM - Post#358194
In response to Penndemonium
True. It's sad that Penn has been the Ivy most adversely affected by the new NIL and transfer policies. This can be overcome by strong recruiting but we don't appear to be getting that. At this point, we're in a struggle for that last spot in the playoff after Yale, Princeton and Brown. And I doubt we will get it.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-23 09:36 AM - Post#358197
In response to Cvonvorys
I have a lot to say on this topic, most of which is not appropriate here, but you misunderstood what the reporter said about the connection to the court decision. Does anyone think it was a coincidence that the latest round of looting was touched off by this?
That said, this has become a chronic problem in many cities, along with some other quality of life issues that we hope the new Mayor will address because it could lead to an exodus of young talent from much as we saw in the 80’s. That includes basketball players.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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10-02-23 12:15 PM - Post#358202
In response to Streamers
“That said, this has become a chronic problem in many cities, along with some other quality of life issues that we hope the new Mayor will address because it could lead to an exodus of young talent from much as we saw in the 80’s. That includes basketball players.”
That was the only point of my initial post. When this thread started, one of the questions asked was about the nature of what recruiting advantages Princeton had over us. As the last post recognizes, this is one of them (and one for which Coach Donahue cannot be blamed).
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-02-23 01:36 PM - Post#358204
In response to slane
I won't further debate the political issues. I contest any notion that our recruiting has suffered as a result of being in a city. After all Yale is in a city with much higher crime rates and Harvard and Columbia are in cities as well. And our recruiting has been weaker than H & Y for years (and may be weaker than Columbia now). This incident has nothing to do with recruiting. Period.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 421
Reg: 10-11-18
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10-03-23 06:00 AM - Post#358219
In response to palestra38
What good is better recruiting if the players want to leave the team after three years? These guys do not like playing for the current coaches, not sure how much more obvious that could be.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-03-23 06:32 AM - Post#358220
In response to CM
There is no question that some recruits don’t want to play in the city and Penn loses out on those prospects. In most cases it’s not Penn specific and HYC all have the same issue. They may overcome that issue better than Penn but that’s a separate discussion.
Penn should be one of the elite places to play in the IL for recruits and it’s not.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-03-23 08:18 AM - Post#358221
In response to CM
What good is better recruiting if the players want to leave the team after three years? These guys do not like playing for the current coaches, not sure how much more obvious that could be.
You may be right, but if you are basing this on Dingle and Martz alone, there are many other explanations and potential explanations for that. It does seem “obvious.”
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 242
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-03-23 09:40 AM - Post#358223
In response to Streamers
In my experience a majority of kids perfer playing at a school in a city. Penns recent failure in recruiting is, or shoujd be easily identifiable
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mbaprof
Senior
Posts: 345
Age: 67
Reg: 12-24-11
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10-03-23 01:07 PM - Post#358224
In response to Streamers
I heard Martz was legit medical retirement, too many accumulated issues
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-03-23 01:38 PM - Post#358225
In response to nychoops
In my experience a majority of kids perfer playing at a school in a city. Penns recent failure in recruiting is, or shoujd be easily identifiable
In my experience a majority of kids who are from a city like to play at a school in a city. Some kids from suburbs like the city but many do not.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-03-23 09:05 PM - Post#358236
In response to Streamers
You may be right, but if you are basing this on Dingle and Martz alone, there are many other explanations and potential explanations for that. It does seem “obvious.”
I meant it does NOT seem “obvious”. Sorry
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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2024 Recruiting
10-04-23 02:39 PM - Post#358248
In response to Streamers
You may be right, but if you are basing this on Dingle and Martz alone, there are many other explanations and potential explanations for that. It does seem “obvious.”
I meant it does NOT seem “obvious”. Sorry
I can’t say that kids don’t like playing for this staff, I have no idea, but kids do like playing on winning teams and there hasn't been enough winning for a while.
Beyond that, what is obvious is that the recruiting is beyond subpar. Doesn’t matter even if players love playing for a program if there isn’t enough depth of winning talent for a championship team (and there isn’t). Just scroll up to see how we are doing with 2024 kids and that should tell you all you need to know.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-04-23 04:33 PM - Post#358252
In response to Mike Porter
Some of the inferences made on this board relative to Jordan Dingle and Max Martz are not supported by the PUBLIC record. Whether they are factual is something I wouldn’t know. What I do know is that a program that doesn’t have much of a public presence lends itself to these type of inferences.
I’ve written before about the lack of a social media presence/ footprint by our coaches. I think it’s consistent with NYCHOOPS comment about our inability to connect with many prospects in the recruiting process. It may not be the only thing that’s lacking, but it seems like one that can easily be addressed. There is little energy, little pizazz, no personality. Young people are constantly on their phones checking Facebook, Instagram, SnapChat. It just seems like an obvious no brainer. Other Penn teams are doing this. Why doesn’t men’s basketball?
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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10-04-23 09:19 PM - Post#358257
In response to AsiaSunset
I make no comment on Max because I have NO FACTS, something that does not stop some of the people on this board from drawing their own conclusions and offering them as fact.
As to Jordan, we hear HIM say on the St Johns preview that he wants to play closer to home, for a Hall of Fame coach and a winning program. We also know that every scholarship player on St Johns is getting at least $75,000 in NIL money - given the focus on him in the video, I think it is safe to assume that Jordan is getting quite a bit more. If that is the case, it's hard to blame him - in fact, personally, I support the decision he made to do what he thinks is best for HIM and his goal of having a pro career.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: 2024 Recruiting
10-05-23 07:49 AM - Post#358273
In response to Mike Porter
I don’t want to jinx us again (like Steve did in that offseason interview where he said nobody ever transfers from Penn basketball), but our transfer rate is still comparatively low, I think. Obviously it’s not zero anymore after Dingle and Larson left. But transfers are just the reality of college basketball now.
So I’m not sure there is much evidence kids don’t like to play here. In addition to the low transfer rate, we don’t have many kids quit. As we’ve discussed before, lots of kids have stuck it out despite losing playing time, etc.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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2024 Recruiting
10-05-23 08:00 AM - Post#358274
In response to SteveChop
I think Jordan had every intention of letting the NBA draft establish his value and unless he were to be a first round pick, return to Penn until Pitino got the St John's job and made him an offer he could not refuse. The landscape changed dramatically after he sat out a year from Penn during the pandemic in order to maintain his Penn eligibility. Still, the tremendous disappointment of last season had to have been some factor in his decision making process. And if we're entering a landscape where Division 1 basketball is professional, we not only have to decide whether we will compete at this level, but whether the coaching staff lives up to the standards of professional basketball with respect to winning and losing. Last season, looking at the coaching from a pro basketball perspective, the coaching staff would be let go. The team underperformed and in crucial situations, lost almost every time. The happened despite having the best player in the League, a quality young center and power forward, and a group of shooting guards the totality of which never gelled (or is it jelled---see https://medium.com/@talkwordy/jell-vs-ge l-go-9bbfd... ). I know most of us here speak primarily of the recruiting, but none of us really knows what we have until 2-3 years later. We can look at last year's performance and know that we missed our best opportunity for a title in a long time and now have to rebuild. Should we rebuild with a staff that was unable to win with a top of the cycle team and the best player in the league?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2024 Recruiting
10-05-23 04:22 PM - Post#358280
In response to SomeGuy
I don’t want to jinx us again (like Steve did in that offseason interview where he said nobody ever transfers from Penn basketball), but our transfer rate is still comparatively low, I think. Obviously it’s not zero anymore after Dingle and Larson left. But transfers are just the reality of college basketball now.
So I’m not sure there is much evidence kids don’t like to play here. In addition to the low transfer rate, we don’t have many kids quit. As we’ve discussed before, lots of kids have stuck it out despite losing playing time, etc.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear on my view. I honestly have no idea if kids like playing for the current program or not. I personally don’t expect a sudden rush of transfers either. I was more generally referring to how I think kids want to win. I do think that was a clear factor from Jordan’s own words, though certainly just one factor.
My point was actually more pivoting back to the original focus of the thread which is recruiting and how frankly it still isn’t going as well as it needs to elevate the program.
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