Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2814
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-12-23 11:59 AM - Post#353845
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Thank you, Mr. Suss, for your always insightful and nonpartisan analysis.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-23 02:13 PM - Post#353873
In response to palestra38
We can always point to things like this in hindsight and trumpet how the statistics are somehow proof of a theory of why we lost. Instead, they are a reflection of how we lost. Both games against Princeton were more than winnable. The first game was a total collapse where one basket would have put the game away. Yesterday was a tie game in the last 3 minutes. Princeton won the psychological game. They knew that when push came to shove, they would get the key rebound and hit the key shot. Both of these games were coin flips on paper in the last minute of the game. Coming away with a definitive statistical "solution" to why we lost is an improper use of statistics.
I have no choice but to look at the coaching here. Both in terms of adjustments and drawing up a winning play. And, apparently, in giving the confidence to the players to get that big rebound and shot. We had a team that should have won this league this year. We only were beaten in 1 game. In the other losses, we beat ourselves.
P38 love your passion and big fan of you. Yes, it comes down to coaching and coaching includes constructing a winning roster. We didn’t lose because the refs, we didn’t lose because of confidence. We lost because we don’t have enough depth and high end players to win, as simple as that. The glaring failure to recruit enough, especially in the post. We had the LEGEND Jordan Dingle as POY and Max Martz as HM in All Ivy, that’s it. The advanced numbers are a reflection of this reality. 133rd KP team isn’t good enough to win this Ivy League. We didn’t beat ourselves, we got beat by better teams.
Beyond the recruiting/depth problem, I can’t say we had a single win this year we could point to some brilliant coaching move can we? I don’t remember one. And not even trying to build some depth with a kid like Ed Holland was a constant frustration for me from go.
We can do whatever mental gymnastics we want, come up with whatever excuses we want, but reality is we weren’t good enough and that’s a direct line back to coaching staff. 5 years since we beat Princeton. 5 #%$@ years. 0-9.
For Stu - sadly no, I’m not surprised. I would love to have been surprised the other way, but that didn’t happen.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-12-23 03:41 PM - Post#353906
In response to Mike Porter
To me, this is all kind of silly. If we scored one more basket before the one minute mark, or allowed one fewer baskets up to that point, we likely win that game. It isn’t really the case that there is some flaw that can’t be overcome that makes the result inevitable. We basically played a coin flip game and lost the coin flip. That’s it.
On that huge Princeton possession where we failed to get a defensive rebound, it wasn’t a lack of aggressiveness or desire to get the rebound. We were a second late on the rotation to the shooter, Monroe was over aggressive getting out to the shooter, and he left Pierce unattended. Monroe made a choice, and a reasonable one, trying to contest the shot. We had 2 guys run at the shooter, and that essentially left us at a rebounding disadvantage numbers-wise. That’s all it was.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-19-23 03:46 PM - Post#354722
In response to SomeGuy
Getting back to the original theme of Stu’s long-lived thread, I had a thought about defense watching Princeton. It really can (and does) improve year to year. We talk about concerns with losing Monroe and MLL, but for this year Princeton lost its best defensive player and rebounder (Ethan Wright) along with 2 other key starters off a weak defensive team, and managed to get considerably better on defense. And it’s not just the young guys — if you look at the way Langborg is staying in front of guys on defense and Kellman is playing in the post, you see guys who have gone from suspect defensively to very good as seniors. Hoping Penn can do this next year, particularly Dingle. I think he can be elite in all phases.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-19-23 04:12 PM - Post#354726
In response to SomeGuy
Hi, Some Guy.
I agree with you. Dingle is elite offensively. However, if he is going to go to the next level, he is going to have to improve defensively. He has the ability to become elite defensively in that he is quick, athletic and strong. So far, he hasn't done that.
Guys, this is not a knock on Dingle. He is great! This is just what I believe he needs to do to improve.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2272
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-23 04:28 PM - Post#354729
In response to jeromelh
Dingle is elite offensively. However, if he is going to go to the next level, he is going to have to improve defensively.
Devin Cannady had an epiphany about defense when he tried to make it in the NBA.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Why is anyone surprised?
03-19-23 04:47 PM - Post#354731
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I think it's presumptuous to assume that Dingle will even be drafted, let alone have a reasonably productive NBA career.
It's just so challenging to make an NBA roster and stick these days.
Trying to think of Ivy players who have been able to do it over the past 35 years or so, and the list is really short: Jeremy Lin, Matt Maloney (who wasn't even drafted), Chris Dudley. Maybe I'm leaving someone out in terms of those who made meaningful contributions, who knows. But the competition to make it is even more fierce today with the high schoolers and the many international players.
Edited by penn nation on 03-19-23 04:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-23 06:13 PM - Post#354734
In response to penn nation
If Jordan continues to progress and stays healthy, I absolutely think he could play at the next level.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23360
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-23 06:37 PM - Post#354735
In response to Streamers
G League maybe
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-19-23 10:08 PM - Post#354750
In response to jeromelh
You have been repeatedly critical of Dingle’s defense. He led the team in steals and was among the league leaders. He guarded Alloco in the ILT and held him to 4 pts. He can certainly get better, but he is far from a liability on defense.
And Dingle is not going to get drafted by an NBA team. He will almost surely get a spot on a G-Legue team to see what he can do and will have a chance to earn his way onto a team.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2137
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-20-23 12:30 AM - Post#354760
In response to PennFan10
I think Dingle could be a late second round pick. He's got the sort of physique that can be successful in the NBA. The closest comparable I can think of would be someone like Kyle Lowry.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-20-23 08:14 AM - Post#354766
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Hi PennFan 10
I have never said that he is a liability on defense.
I have made my comments about his defense in the context of possible NBA future.
Earlier in the season Princeton played Iona and after the game Pitino was interviewed and he spoke about Tosan. He mentioned that if he wanted to go to the next level, he had to get stronger. I never felt that Pitino was knocking him or accusing him of being weak. He is plenty strong in the Ivy League. He just isn't NBA strong.
Jordan's offense is elite, but his defense and passing needs to improve if he wants to try for the NBA. So far, it hasn't.
BTW-Tosan and Dingle are the only Ivy Leaguers with NBA potential.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-20-23 10:27 AM - Post#354771
In response to jeromelh
Hi PennFan 10
I have never said that he is a liability on defense.
So this wasn't you?
Hi guys!!
If you recall, I said that one problem Dingle has, is that he hasn't added anything to his game this year. Yes, he is an absolutely great shooter, NBA quality. However, he is a defensive liability and not much of a passer. If you recall, Allocco's shots near the end of overtime were taken against Dingle and after watching the game again, you could see that Princeton was trying to isolate someone on Dingle. To have an NBA future, he needs to work on his defense and passing.
Tosan is totally different. He has never been a high scorer, but is a great passer, has a superb handle for someone his size and an excellent defender. Princeton's offense runs through him. We are going to miss him next year.
BTW-don't just assume that you will lose next weekend. Penn has the ability and talent to win the whole thing.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-20-23 10:54 AM - Post#354772
In response to PennFan10
You are correct. I was referring to NBA where he would be a defensive liability, not in the Ivy League. However, you are correct. My Bad!
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-20-23 11:11 AM - Post#354773
In response to jeromelh
Seems pretty clear to me your comments are both current and future. I don't know that there are many college kids that currently defend well enough for the NBA. That's pretty much true of every player, every year.
You also said this:
"Hi
If you read my post I wasn’t knocking his offense. He is quick, athletic and strong. He should be a very good defender but he isn’t. He also doesn’t pass well. I am really not trying to knock the kid. He is a great offensive player. When he penetrates he could kick it out to an open shooter. But he almost never does."
His 6 assists in the ILT were almost all penetrate and dish, his defense vs P was high level. Never saw you acknowledge any of that. No problem, this is a public opinion board and we all don't have to agree, just own it if you said it.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 213
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-20-23 01:29 PM - Post#354784
In response to PennFan10
That was one game. Look at the assists from previous games. Maybe someone said something to him before the Ivy League Tourney. I don't know. Anyway, I think this discussion has reached its end.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-20-23 04:19 PM - Post#354790
In response to SomeGuy
I would second SomeGuy's point about defensive improvement. TBH, a lot of improvement has occurred on this Princeton team over the course of this season, just in terms of on-ball man defense. Hofstra, say, was dribbling past the same guys earlier this year who in the last five games have been able to stay in front of people without fouling.
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