palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32686
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-06-23 09:52 PM - Post#349043
In response to Chip Bayers
Indeed
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-06-23 09:55 PM - Post#349045
In response to palestra38
Really amazing how much the 4th Martz foul caused the huge Cornell run.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-06-23 09:57 PM - Post#349047
In response to Chip Bayers
Smith has had a really bad game at both ends.
|
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2125
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
|
01-06-23 10:14 PM - Post#349052
In response to Chip Bayers
Too many turnovers. We were sloppy with the ball, and couldn't handle their ball pressure. The number of times they stripped the ball from a defensive rebounder was frustrating.
Their depth really hurt us. As did not getting much offense from anyone other than Dingle, Slajchert and Martz.
I would like to see the team bounce back against Columbia tomorrow night.
|
scoop85
Freshman
Posts: 60
Loc: Goshen, NY
Reg: 02-16-12
|
01-06-23 11:42 PM - Post#349066
In response to scoop85
From the Cornell perspective, Penn has been the toughest Ivy matchup for the Big Red the past several years, and I believe that remains true this year. This is Earl's best team since arriving in Ithaca, and I see this game as the proverbial toss-up. Much of Cornell's success this year has been relying on its deep bench to wear down opponents in the 2nd half, and I think that blueprint will need to play out again for Cornell to win.
Cornell really did an excellent job limiting the damage of Penn’s big scorers, and as in many other games this season, Cornell’s deeper bench and high tempo style were the deciding factors.
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
01-07-23 12:06 AM - Post#349068
In response to weinhauers_ghost
The situation in the league so far.
Championship contenders: Princeton and Cornell.
Tournament contenders: Penn, Yale, Havard.
Also rans: Columbia, Brown, and Dartmouth.
Penn is clearly better than last year. BUT is far from where a top-of-the-cycle team should be. Reason - the talent after the big two is ordinary.
Example: Lucas Monroe Max LL who should as seniors be contributing significantly. Lucas took two shots and Max played for 5 minutes. Compare that to the peak AJ team that had AJ, Devin, Woods, Wood, Foreman, and Max.
Of the current members of this team only Clark and Dingle would get significant time on the AJ team. Put differently, the remainder of the current team is not of championship quality.
As to the game: Several observations
Penn's two stars were 1-8 from 3 with 2 assists, 7 turnovers, and 1 rebound. In fairness, they were 13-18 from 2. Still, that is far from championship performance in a very big game.
Bench points Penn 11, Cornell 27
|
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-07-23 12:06 AM - Post#349069
In response to scoop85
Congrats to Cornell on an impressive win that they earned with good all around play in a team effort.
For Penn, there is nothing wrong losing to one of the other top teams on the road, but if you want to claim you are a top team, it’s an extremely bad look to lose by 17 on the road to one of the top teams.
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. Jordan Dingle even when he isn’t at his best/100%, is a generational talent who is one of the best scorers in the country. Yet even with an extra year to recruit, the staff failed on multiple levels to recruit and/or develop enough talent around him (consistently disappointing recruitment of depth) and that’s infuriating as a fan. We have two and a half scorers, not enough talent inside, and pretty much no defenders.
We still have a lot of season and fully expect team to compete for Ivy tournament and hope they can bounce back quickly tomorrow, but damn if the nature of this loss isn’t frustrating. We have one of the best offensive players in the country who is a senior by age, yet are still 162 in KP, 8-8 in what should be a peak year. Let that sink in.
P.S. P38 - for the record even if Jordan and Clark scored 50 we still would have lost.
Here’s to hoping for a quick bounce back and let’s see what tomorrow brings.
|
slane
Freshman
Posts: 63
Reg: 02-09-05
|
01-07-23 01:00 AM - Post#349072
In response to Mike Porter
For all you lovers of the KPom it is worth noting that Top 100 Yale just lost two in a row to projected Ivy cellar dwellers Columbia and Dartmouth.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-07-23 10:21 AM - Post#349077
In response to Mike Porter
In some ways this game was similar to our win over Temple. This was a battle for 75% of the game, but then when it got away, it really got away. We led 56-55 with under 12 minutes left after Slajchert’s 3 pointer. But Cornell essentially scored on its next 8 possessions, basically putting the game away.
|
slane
Freshman
Posts: 63
Reg: 02-09-05
|
01-07-23 12:04 PM - Post#349085
In response to SomeGuy
Exactly correct. Same script as our win vs Temple
|
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-07-23 12:06 PM - Post#349086
In response to SomeGuy
This was the sequence of play after the Slajchert 3 put Penn up 56-55.
1. Dolan beats Moshkowitz on a back door cut down the lane. Dolan scores and is fouled by Martz. Although Dolan misses the free throw. Martz is forced to the bench with his 4th personal foul, limiting Penn's offense while Penn's defense is failing. Cornell leads 57-56.
2. After Moshkovitz misses an off-balance, running hook shot, Dolan drives right around Dingle and scores on a reverse layup. Cornell leads 59-56.
3. After Smith misses an open, 3 point shot from the baseline, Williams drives past Lucas Monroe, pulls up, and hits a two point shot. Cornell leads 61-56.
4. After a Slajchert travel, Lorca-Lloyd enters the game for Moshkovitz. Lorca-Lloyd rebounds a missed three point shot by Boothby, immediately has the ball stolen from him by Filien who passes the ball up top to Dolan who drains a three pointer, having been left open by Dingle. Cornell leads 64-56.
5. After a Penn timeout, Slajchert, while double-teamed, tries to throw a jump pass to Jonah Charles. The pass is intercepted by Boothby. On the Penn defensive possession. Hansen is isolated on Dingle after a switch and Hansen scores over Dingle. The "help" from Spinoso is too little and too late. Cornell leads 66-56.
6. Spinoso has the ball stripped from him. Williams scores on a fast break off the Penn turnover. Cornell leads 68-56, a 13-0 run for Cornell.
7. After a Dingle basket, Williams gets an offensive rebound over Slajchert, draws a foul, and makes both foul shots. Cornell leads 70-58.
8. After a Spinoso basket, Williams drives on Slajchert, spins around him, and attempts to put up a shot. Laczkowski comes over in an unsuccessful attempt to block the shot, leaving Dolan open to put in the offensive rebound. Cornell leads 72-60 with 7:39 remaining. The Cornell lead would never drop below 10 points.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-07-23 01:27 PM - Post#349090
In response to Stuart Suss
It was one tough play in a whole series, but it felt big at the time when MLL got stripped. For a moment we appeared to finally get a stop, and then suddenly Cornell had the ball again and drained a 3.
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
01-07-23 01:38 PM - Post#349091
In response to Stuart Suss
We know now what 2023 looks like.
As to next year - Cornell gets everybody back next year. Princeton, Yale, and Harvard lose some significant players. Penn loses only Monroe.
Brown and Columbia has some interesting young talent. So Cornell is favored with Penn following, hoping that the young talent elsewhere doesn't mature.
Don't look now, but the only freshman or sophomore showing any significant promise is Spinoso.
Has anybody heard anything about Ubochi?
In six recruiting seasons, Steve has had two good years, two okay years, and three bad years. That is mediocre recruiting at best. It is a testament to his success on the floor that he has qualified for the tournament every year despite the poor recruiting.
The summary is - success for Penn is qualifying for the last seed in the tournament.
Maybe such mediocracy is what the Ivy's are about. In the four years in play here, Yale has had two NCAA appearances, Penn and Princeton 1 a piece. So when is Penn's next shy appearance post-season? If it ain't in 23 or 24, the next two recruiting classes had better be good. Otherwise, the great recession in Penn basketball may extend past twenty years.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Cornell 01-07-23 01:50 PM - Post#349092
In response to UPIA1968
Note that Cornell loses Dolan next year, who leads them in scoring, assists, and minutes. Filien is more replaceable, but they lose him too. So they lose their best player, plus another piece. And note that their offense was pretty stagnant last night when Dolan wasn’t on the floor.
Edited by SomeGuy on 01-07-23 01:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
|
01-07-23 04:33 PM - Post#349097
In response to SomeGuy
We must be in dire straits if we are only two games into Ivy play and already discussing where Penn should theoretically place in next year's league.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
|
01-07-23 05:45 PM - Post#349100
In response to SomeGuy
Cornell is good and they beat us fairly easily. They were able to play their way: speed us up, turn us over, and score easy baskets while limiting our effectiveness on the offensive end. There are two ways to win basketball games. One is to be more efficient with existing possessions than the other team on some combination of offense and defense and the second is to create more possessions (with pressure and up tempo) and try to outscore the other team. Cornell is clearly the second and we weren't prepared for what they brought to the floor at both ends. I think they are one of the top teams in our league at this point.
|
Catskill
Freshman
Posts: 9
Age: 74
Reg: 03-13-18
|
01-07-23 06:34 PM - Post#349102
In response to UPIA1968
I disagree about the underclass men. Thrower can play but is stuck behind Clark and Jordan. Holland is a player. He has more talent than Smith or Charles. Would love to have seen him with preIvy time and have been the open man when Clark got doubled.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Cornell 01-07-23 10:55 PM - Post#349178
In response to SomeGuy
Note that Cornell loses Dolan next year, who leads them in scoring, assists, and minutes. Filien is more replaceable, but they lose him too. So they lose their best player, plus another piece. And note that their offense was pretty stagnant last night when Dolan wasn’t on the floor.
Can’t believe you’re casting doubt on such seemingly authoritative snap analysis by pointing out simple factual errors.
|