UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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02-26-23 03:31 PM - Post#352623
The next two weekends will tell us much about the state of the Donahue programs. Much to the surprise of the skeptics (me included) this team proves that, at the peak of the cycle, Penn can contend for the title. That certainly has provided plenty of excitement so far this year. It remains, however, well short of the dominant champions of the Dunphey years.
That program produced multiple 14-0 years. but there was also that marvelous 25-point win in Princeton that secured the bid despite the Black Tuesday disaster at the Palestra earlier. (The absolute low point of my 63 years rooting for Penn BB.) I also point to the 30-point win over Yale in that 3-way tie during the U era. That is what dominant teams do.
As yet this program has fallen short of that. Remember that the wonderful 2018 Championship required a one-bucket victory at home to make the tournament.
Three more wins (in Ivy play) would put this team in the category that we all want. To do so Penn has to beat at least two very good teams, with no home-court advantage. Sure we already know this talent can steal one from Princeton or Yale. But to put three (or two) in a row would put it in another class.
We all know that fewer turnovers, good shooting from Clark and Jordon, plus contributions from the other five regular contributors would score more points (a little) However, great teams play superior defense. In the last five years of the Dunphy era, the worst defensive ranking was 88. This team is currently at 240, not helped by a dismal performance against 6th-place Dartmouth.
So, as Stu has been telling us, it's defense stupid! Let's hope that the seniors got out with a blaze of glory and pull rest along on their hardworking path. Max and Lucas play D.
This opportunity won't get easier next year with the loss of the two best defensive players. Think of it this way: In order for Penn to get better next year, Steve has to replace Lucas and Max LL with players with no experience. Yes, Smith may be able to backfill for Lucas, but who backfills for George? Next year's team will contend, but will it achieve greatness? This team could with just a two-week spurt.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21302
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 03:49 PM - Post#352624
In response to UPIA1968
We will be in the running next year due to the fact that all of our main scorers (Dingle, Slajchert, Martz, Spinoso, Smith) will be back.
The real test of the Donahue "program" will be the year after that, when all of those key players leave, other than Smith and Spinoso. What will we have been able to develop by then?
Edited by penn nation on 02-26-23 03:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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State of the Program
02-26-23 04:05 PM - Post#352626
In response to penn nation
Why are we always launching these topics with pining for an Ivy League which doesn’t exist anymore and never will again? The economic environment in the league and college basketball as a whole bears absolutely no relationship to what existed 15-20 years ago.
And let’s take off our rose-colored hindsight glasses and remember other things about the Ugonna years, like the constant complaining here about a team which all-too frequently underperformed its talent level, especially in the disastrous ‘01 season.
Also much whining at the time about the terrible talent dropoff and decline in the program we were facing in ‘04 with the Schiffner-led team.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 02-26-23 04:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 04:13 PM - Post#352627
In response to UPIA1968
Next year is top of cycle. I think you correctly pick the replacement for Monroe — it will be Smith. First man up for Smith’s current bench minutes would appear to be Latch, who could take on the extra minutes. My guess is that we have two immediate contributors in the incoming class, and that fills some of your concerns, as well.
MLL is harder to replace, but I think further development from Spinoso can replace that, more or less. It’s not like MLL is giving us more than 10-15 minutes a game anyway.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 07:08 PM - Post#352632
In response to Chip Bayers
In the Teens there were 8 Ivy Champs with KP rankings below 100, averaging 58 with a low of 32. They accounted for five NCAA tournament wins, five times what Dunphy achieved. Clearly excellence is possible in this era.
Sure, there are now at least four schools that emphasize basketball, not the two of Franny's era. So dominating the Ivies is MUCH more difficult. However, the best teams in this era are as good as Penn was during the Dunphy era. Unless you hold that something has changed since 2017.
What I know for sure is that, since Fran left, things have changed clearly for the worse. Steve has brought the Program two-thirds of the way back, but is still short of real excellence, even at the peak of the cycles. Is it unreasonable to want Penn to achieve what Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Cornell did in the Teens now? I think not. Dominate for half of the next ten years? Only in my dreams. Produce three champions with a real chance to win an NCAA tournament game? I think so.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32901
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 07:43 PM - Post#352633
In response to UPIA1968
You don't understand what the pandemic did to the Ivies. Look at Tommy Amaker to comprehend what happened to the best program prior to the pandemic. James Jones has done very well, but he has not replaced the stars he lost. We have the best player in the league and now, guys like Martz, Slajchert, Smith and Spinoso (despite one bad game), might be the best overall rotation in the league--and they're all back next year.
Frankly, I don't know why you insist on consistently giving bad vibes to the program when we are one game away from a title. Wait until the offseason--at least Jeff has the humility to stand back even though everyone knows how he feels. This is just the wrong time for this. I hope you're not going to either of the games the next two weeks.
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The Pine
Freshman
Posts: 61
Reg: 02-22-15
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 08:36 PM - Post#352635
In response to Chip Bayers
Agree with this sentiment. Things change, and it is very unlikely that Penn (or Princeton or Yale or Harvard) dominates like it's 1980 Something. Grow up....
I love watching Penn Basketball, but I actually think the Ivies are better now. (Blasphemy!) The parity and the Tournament actually make for a more exciting season, no one is ever out-of-it.
As for Penn, Donahue, I believe, is the only coach never to miss the Tournament. He has raised a dysfunctional/moribund program under Allen and is now facing a much stiffer recruiting and playing environment ,which ironically he created while at Cornell, than years passed. He also has successfully developed Dingle, Foreman, Woods, Brodeur among others. He has been a basketball coach for his entire adult life and you have to trust that he knows a lot more than the armchair quarterbacks who constantly rail against him. Plus, your team is playing for the Ivy Championship on Saturday. Five other programs aren't What else do you want?
For years, this forum has been jealous of Amaker and Harvard and their recruiting and playing dominance. How jealous are you now? Would like to be The Crimson now? Would you rather have Amaker and his arguably mediocre coaching ability? Not me...
Say what you'd like, but Donahue is consistent and I'd take that quality any day. I have enjoyed watching Penn since his hire. He's not perfect (who is), but he's a pretty good Ivy coach. Let him do his job, he knows what he's doing.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32901
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 08:44 PM - Post#352636
In response to The Pine
While I agree with you, Yale has made the tournament each year since it started.
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The Pine
Freshman
Posts: 61
Reg: 02-22-15
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 08:46 PM - Post#352637
In response to palestra38
I said I wasn't sure..... Still Donahue hasn't been a head coach for 24 years like Jones.
Pretty good....
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32901
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 09:02 PM - Post#352638
In response to The Pine
As I said, I agree with you. I think not only is the criticism of the initial post here unfair, it also is terribly timed.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 09:18 PM - Post#352639
In response to SomeGuy
Let me clarify for a moment — I think the replacements for Monroe next year are easy to guess. That doesn’t mean he is easily replaced. He’s a lot like Jelani was last year — a kid who is in many ways the spirit of the team, and whose contributions exceed what is evident in the box score. We replace great Quakers just about every year. As Lucas said at the game Saturday, he is excited to pass the torch to the younger guys to see what they do with it. He’s a great player, and it has been a joy to really see him come into his own late in his senior year.
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The Pine
Freshman
Posts: 61
Reg: 02-22-15
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 09:20 PM - Post#352640
In response to palestra38
If Penn loses Saturday, prepare for the "Fire Donahue" chorus. The guy doesn't play and no coach wins every game. Give him break..
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
Posts: 681
Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 09:46 PM - Post#352641
In response to The Pine
Just popping in to share this: Luke Benz shares that Jordan Dingle has the secondmost thirty-point games of any Ivy player since his data set began, only one behind Matt Morgan. And Dingle still has a year left.
Edited by iogyhufi on 02-26-23 09:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21302
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: State of the Program
02-26-23 10:41 PM - Post#352644
In response to penn nation
Hardly a surprise. Last season by Dingle was the 21st highest scoring season by an Ivy player since 85-86 and this year Dingle is already in 6th (likely to end up in 3rd by the time he plays his last game this year).
The only Ivy players who have multiple entries in the Top 21 are Matt Morgan (1st and 4th) and Jim Barton (3rd, 5th and 15th, who played before Benz's timeline).
Barton, by the way, scored 30+ points in Ivy play eight times, including one time when he scored 48 against Yale in OT.
Edited by penn nation on 02-26-23 10:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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02-27-23 12:27 PM - Post#352666
In response to penn nation
It's never going to be like it was for several reasons. So I will sit back and enjoy a competitive season and the tourney. Would I like to see it better? Sure. Maybe some kid with talent will see Dingle play on TV and think that could be him.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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02-27-23 02:43 PM - Post#352681
In response to OldBig5
Wow I sure hope this team who has qualified for the tournament and has a chance to win the title with one game left who has a lot of talented players on the team doesn’t read this post.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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02-27-23 06:03 PM - Post#352695
In response to yoyo
Not sure what you mean? Did I say they don't have a chance? Should I be on suicide watch if we don't have the clearly best team every year?
My comment about Dingle was hoping the high level talent could continue. They won the tourney in 2018 with the best player in the league and agains have the best player. The depth of talent does not seem to match Yale or Princeton or even Harvard most years. Not blaming anyone for that.
The Donahue years are clearly better than the two coaches who came before for sure.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32901
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-27-23 06:06 PM - Post#352696
In response to OldBig5
I think he was taking issue with the initial comments from UPIA, who is very similar to the Columbia posters who scream that the program is not like it was when McMillian and Forte were there. Plus, it was horrible timing to rip the program when we are in position to win the league.
A lot of people simply post without thinking about who they actually are replying to.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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02-27-23 06:10 PM - Post#352697
In response to palestra38
I think he was taking issue with the initial comments from UPIA, who is very similar to the Columbia posters who scream that the program is not like it was when McMillian and Forte were there. Plus, it was horrible timing to rip the program when we are in position to win the league.
A lot of people simply post without thinking about who they actually are replying to.
Ok, usually I quote like this to avoid that. I was wondering and that seems the most plausible explanation.
Thanks.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-28-23 12:01 AM - Post#352712
In response to OldBig5
Agreed that grumbling when we were 1-4 in the ivies was understandable, but complaining when we are tied for first and playing for the championship is ridiculous. I give Palestra38 credit for his optimism about this team. We have a team which very much could win the Ivy Tourney and of course could fall short. The league is internally competitive. I like Donahue's chances in any single game, but it will take Foreman's will and desire to win out. Praying for stout defense over the next few weeks, but I'll be supporting this team regardless!
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