1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2282
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 02:22 PM - Post#353158
In response to Chip Bayers
I was puzzled by the decision of Penn not to guard Xavian Lee outside the three point line.
Because he’s a 26% shooter from there?
It had been more than a month since Lee hit a three in a game.
Point taken. But generally other teams were at least attempting to guard him.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2282
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 02:31 PM - Post#353160
In response to penn nation
this year Penn is actually a better 3 point shooting team than Princeton.
We've not been a good three point shooting team this year; only Allocco has been consistent.
But if we shoot better against Penn, what does that say about Penn's defense compared to other Ivy opponents?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3591
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-05-23 02:31 PM - Post#353161
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Problem with Princeton--all matchups starts with Tosan. You have to show him a wall of bodies when he drives which means you have to pick which shooters to leave open (and try to close out). Lee was a better choice than some of the other shooters.
Tosan is a unique beast in this league. That said, Dingle is rightfully going to be voted POY by the coaches, the only question is whether they will make Tosan co-POY.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 02:57 PM - Post#353164
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I’d say mostly luck, especially when you see that Penn’s 3 pt defense this year is better than Princeton’s.
That said, Penn is not usually going to win games with its defense. It wins when 3+ other players make important contributions on offense in addition to Dingle.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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Pennsylvania
03-05-23 03:01 PM - Post#353165
In response to PennFan10
I’m fine with Tosan as co-winner.
But you just cannot ignore Dingle’s historic season. He will end up #2 in DI scoring average. And without him, the Quakers are watching the ILT on TV.
Edited by penn nation on 03-05-23 03:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2822
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 03:18 PM - Post#353168
In response to penn nation
Given the youth of Penn’s best players they will be tough to beat in Dingle’s senior season. Players like him don’t come along very often. Maybe co POYs this year. But Dingle has no rivals next year.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 03:33 PM - Post#353171
In response to Tiger69
Given the youth of Penn’s best players they will be tough to beat in Dingle’s senior season. Players like him don’t come along very often. Maybe co POYs this year. But Dingle has no rivals next year.
Problem is that a noticeable chunk of the relatively few quality defenders that it does have will be lost to graduation in Lorca-Lloyd and Monroe.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6422
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-05-23 03:46 PM - Post#353172
In response to LocalTiger
To quantify this a bit, though, the turnovers matter, and they matter a lot. Tosan had a 33% turnover percentage in the game yesterday, which is why he had an ORAT of 92, which basically says that his efficiency was below that of an average player. Now obviously he sets up other guys well, so he gets some credit for the fact that the rest of the team had a higher ORAT overall. But it still was not an efficient game for him. Each turnover is another missed shot (in fact, it is worse than a missed shot, because at least on a missed shot you have an opportunity for an offensive rebound).
Dingle missed shots in the second half, but he still finished the game with a 110 ORAT, which means he played significantly more efficiently than the average player.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6422
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-05-23 03:51 PM - Post#353174
In response to penn nation
One thing I think you’ll see next year is Dingle become a high level defensive player as a senior. He has been improving each year on both ends, but he really took a step up defensively this year. We’ve gone from hiding him on defense his freshman year to often giving him tough assignments now. I think next year he becomes our main guy on both ends.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 484
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-05-23 04:03 PM - Post#353176
In response to SomeGuy
In the Ivy League this year, Dingle had 39 turnovers and 26
assists. Tosan had 45 turnovers and 80 assists. He is far more
efficient than Dingle.
As to defense, he may improve next year, but he is not
a good defender now. Allocco showed that at the end of the game
yesterday, and my guess is Mitch goes after him early next week.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-05-23 04:14 PM - Post#353179
In response to LocalTiger
In the Ivy League this year, Dingle had 39 turnovers and 26
assists. Tosan had 45 turnovers and 80 assists. He is far more
efficient than Dingle.
Some of this, however, speaks to the quality of the respective supporting casts. Dingle can set up his teammates very well with good shot opportunities, but it doesn't count as an assist if they can't finish.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6422
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-05-23 04:17 PM - Post#353181
In response to LocalTiger
That’s not really how efficiency works, though. Dingle has more raw turnovers because a higher percentage of Penn plays end with a Dingle shot, turnover, or assist. But nearly 20% of the possessions that end with Tosan end in a turnover, while only 13% of the possessions that end with Dingle end in a turnover. So in terms of percentages, Tosan turns it over much more than Dingle. Assists matter, of course, but they don’t fully make the difference. For the season, both guys have very good ORATs. Dingle at 115 was higher than Tosan at 110. You are elevating assist/turnover ratio above what it means. We can actually quantify how much a turnover hurts and how much an assist helps, and how that compares to a shot. For this year, Dingle was more efficient when you mix all that together.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 484
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-05-23 04:20 PM - Post#353182
In response to penn nation
and Tosan's turnovers yesterday were in part
a result of trying to create offense when
Princeton kept missing the open 3s that would have
been assists for him.
Last year, Penn posters kept saying Tosan
would be ineffective when the Seniors graduated
and Penn would be at the top of its cycle.
Now, you are saying Tosan again has the better
supporting cast? Maybe Tosan makes his team
better,
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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Pennsylvania
03-05-23 04:22 PM - Post#353183
In response to SomeGuy
I'll also note that Dingle's turnovers started to decrease right after the Yale loss, which began the long winning streak. Earlier in the year, Dingle was often the primary ball handler. But once they started to use Dingle more as a cutter or a wing guy, and Monroe more as the guy who brought the ball up, good things happened.
Only 17 turnovers in his last 9 games, which is pretty impressive given his extremely high usage rate.
Edited by penn nation on 03-05-23 04:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6422
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-05-23 04:28 PM - Post#353184
In response to LocalTiger
For the record, I’ve never said any of those things about Tosan. He’s a great player. If he is POY or co-POY, you won’t hear a word of complaint from me.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 217
Age: 82
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-05-23 06:04 PM - Post#353205
In response to SomeGuy
Hi guys!!
If you recall, I said that one problem Dingle has, is that he hasn't added anything to his game this year. Yes, he is an absolutely great shooter, NBA quality. However, he is a defensive liability and not much of a passer. If you recall, Allocco's shots near the end of overtime were taken against Dingle and after watching the game again, you could see that Princeton was trying to isolate someone on Dingle. To have an NBA future, he needs to work on his defense and passing.
Tosan is totally different. He has never been a high scorer, but is a great passer, has a superb handle for someone his size and an excellent defender. Princeton's offense runs through him. We are going to miss him next year.
BTW-don't just assume that you will lose next weekend. Penn has the ability and talent to win the whole thing.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-05-23 06:14 PM - Post#353207
In response to jeromelh
His shooting percentages continue to go up each and every year, both overall FG% and 3 pt FG%
Oh, and when he came into the league? 58.3% from the line. He's now one of the top FT shooters in the IL and, of even greater importance, has far more makes from the line than anyone else--and it aint close.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 217
Age: 82
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-05-23 06:21 PM - Post#353209
In response to penn nation
His offense is absolutely great. No question. On offense, he is NBA ready. To go to the next level he needs to be able to play defense and he has a problem there. He also is not much of a passer. If he can develop those skills he can play at the next level. Those skills are just not there right now.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2822
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-05-23 06:27 PM - Post#353211
In response to SomeGuy
I assume that Tosan’s TOs are offset by his 3 steals as well as his defensive rebounds when determining his efficiency.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21372
Reg: 12-02-04
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Pennsylvania
03-05-23 06:35 PM - Post#353213
In response to jeromelh
Right. But my point was that, in fact, his game has improved each and every year. He is finding new ways to score and excelling at them.
I am sure that if, for example, Slajchert had panned out the way that it looked like he would early in the year, Dingle would be freer to find other ways to contribute, which is a luxury that someone like Tosan has.
Dingle must score for Penn to have a chance to win. They have but one other player in the IL Top 20 in scoring (and just barely at that, Martz at 20) and they don't have enough good defenders for that to be a team strength.
Edited by penn nation on 03-05-23 06:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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