Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-23 12:09 PM - Post#353848
In response to Quakers03
Honestly, I'll say it again, Steve is not going anywhere unless he wants to. I think most of nychoops comments can be applied to the entire Athletic Dept. Recruiting, marketing, ticket sales, etc. The new AD needs some time - maybe we some changes on Steve's staff?
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 366
Reg: 03-25-09
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03-12-23 01:11 PM - Post#353856
In response to Quakers03
Looks like the 2 best teams in the league played in the semis yesterday at 130
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-23 02:21 PM - Post#353879
In response to nychoops
I'm not here to chime in on a man's job status. I'm sure my position is getting annoyingly repetitive so this is my last time and harshest time. ...the current staff is complacent and does an awful job in recruiting. Their is no outside the box thinking, no persistency, no creativity ... unless a player falls into their laps they don't find them. Yale especially but several of the other schools work on an entire different level and unless something changes either get used to mediocrity or pray a generational player falls into your lap every few years
Thank you for sharing your insights as always, and I completely agree with you. It’s been evident as an outside observer of recruiting for a long time. It actually got so frustrating, I stopped following it. The mental gymnastics and downright self delusion we’ve heard over the last couple years around this are maddening. All we need to do is look at All Ivy team to see our problem. One amazing POY, one fringe all Ivy HM and maybe like one fringe HM who missed the cut. That’s it and that’s not enough to win. Anyone who doesn’t see this is frankly lying to themselves.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-23 02:57 PM - Post#353889
In response to Quakers03
I’m curious where “creativity” or lack thereof makes a difference in recruiting. Is it fin aid? NIL? Social media? Or some other factor?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 04:24 PM - Post#353923
In response to Chip Bayers
I'm not actually disagreeing with people about the state of the program. I'm just saying that this might not need to be such a big deal to a bunch of long dated alumni.
I'm not calling for his head, but I'm not defending him either.
No need for criticizing anyone here.
I had hoped that when Steve D. talked about revisiting everything he does in coaching during covid, that recruiting was at the top of his list. It does feel like business as usual, despite a seemingly decent recruiting class this year. To win championships, he needs to bring in a superstar candidate most years, not one every 5-6 years. A winner needs 2-3 league stars on the roster. Otherwise, you're just a contender. He is a very good X's and O's coach, but talent is a team's ceiling. NYCHoops is speaking about a recruiting process that is lacking. He has a lot of credibility with me - he sees the player and family perspective. My gut is that he won't stoop to levels of other coaches (i.e. showing up at the supermarket), but some others are playing to win. He also thinks players should see things in the program, but he needs to embody the program with passion and personality. At least from what I've seen, he doesn't show that. He's just a good honorable guy doing what he does in a decent way. I get why that's insufficient for many. In another time, that might not have been enough for me, but I have other things to worry about. I would be thrilled to have him coach my kids.
I'm going to go hang out with my family now.
Edited by Penndemonium on 03-12-23 04:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2144
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 05:26 PM - Post#353936
In response to Chip Bayers
I’m curious where “creativity” or lack thereof makes a difference in recruiting. Is it fin aid? NIL? Social media? Or some other factor?
To my mind, this lack of creativity is about recruiting players who fit a coach's system, even if that means they may not have the size or athleticism of that team's conference competitors.
Coaches who can adapt their systems to the skills of their players also seem to be better at making adjustments in games and between games.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 03-12-23 05:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21312
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 05:32 PM - Post#353938
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Charles is probably a good example here. SD needs bona fide outside shooters in his system. When left alone, Charles has an impressive skill set here.
But this didn’t translate so well in actual game play when Charles was facing DI opponents who were guarding him. And the rest of his game didn’t really offer much on either side of the court.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 05:40 PM - Post#353940
In response to weinhauers_ghost
With all due respect, everyone on this board (NYCHOOPS included) see the tip of the iceberg. We are not being beaten by 4 star recruits.
Ivy League recruiting is complicated by the AI and financial aid. I think everyone understands that.
While I believe that Penn basketball lacks a significant Internet personality, I’m not sure of the impact if any. Nor do I see we were beaten by teams that are killing us in the recruiting game. Neither Yale nor Princeton played a deep rotation this weekend. Cornell did, but …..
I echo some thoughts here about Eddie Holland. None of us are at practice everyday so my thoughts and others’ thoughts are without the benefit of really knowing. Hats off to Princeton. Evbouwam is a special player who made them special. As an aside, Tosan was unrecruited outside of Princeton.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 06:19 PM - Post#353949
In response to AsiaSunset
High Asia
Tosan was not recruited by Princeton. He recruited Princeton. He was there for the taking by any of the Ivies early on. Once again, go to verbalcommits.com and look at other offers. Dingle was lightly recruited as was Caden Pierce. It was just good luck that Dingle turned out so well. However, overall Princeton, Harvard and Yale get the best recruits going in. For example, Yale's Poulakidas had offers from Minnesota, Wake Forest, Rutgers, TCU and Butler (and others). Freshman Danny Wolf had offers from Minnesota, DePaul, Penn State, etc. BTW, Princeton has two studs coming in and Yale has one. Princeton has Dalen Davis coming in with multiple big time FBS offers including Kansas. Of course all of this assumes, Verbal Commits.com is accurate.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 06:48 PM - Post#353956
In response to jeromelh
Dalen Davis probably did get a Kansas offer; however, it was 3 years ago. I don’t think he ultimately chose Princeton over Kansas or a few of those other glitzy offers. He made hm all state Illinois this year as did Penn’s incoming recruit from Illinois. I’m not saying he isn’t a good Ivy recruit, but I’m not sure he’s special. The same is true for everyone on that Yale team other than Mbeng who in my opinion is also a special player.
By the way, both Spinosa and Slachert had Yale offers. Tyler Perkins (incoming frosh) had a Harvard offer. We’ve lost recruits to Harvard, Yale and Princeton. I don’t think any of those guys are the reason we didn’t win the championship. Tosan was.
Edited by AsiaSunset on 03-12-23 06:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 07:03 PM - Post#353962
In response to AsiaSunset
You make some good points. How often do recruits choose Penn over HYP?? I don't believe that it common. It is also my belief that there is no substantial educational difference among any of the Ivies. HYP have an advantage due to reputation, not anything concrete.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Fire Steve Donahue
03-12-23 07:15 PM - Post#353965
In response to jeromelh
Not many, but then again I didn’t see a lot of players on the court this weekend who chose Yale or Princeton over Penn. I know Issaia Kelly did as did Jarvis, but I’m not sure where either was on our “draft” board.
I follow football recruiting pretty closely. I’d say it’s pretty common for Penn recruits to have H, Y , P offers but once again, you don’t really know what each school’s priorities are.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 244
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-12-23 07:21 PM - Post#353969
In response to jeromelh
This board is full of thoughtful respectful posters who are WAY more educated on how recruiting in the league works so I defer to them. Asia is absolutely right I am not in touch with the full complexities of how the AI and financial aid work and I am sorry if I made remarks without fully understanding all the issues involved
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-12-23 07:24 PM - Post#353970
In response to nychoops
Agreed
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-12-23 07:39 PM - Post#353974
In response to jeromelh
Penn was on Pierce before any Ivy. The kid chose Princeton (who came in late). Dalen Davis will probably end up the third best recruit out of Illinois this year behind Polinowski (Penn) and Nesbitt (Harvard).
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-23 08:23 PM - Post#353981
In response to PennFan10
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Pierce probably could play for us 
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2215
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-12-23 10:54 PM - Post#354004
In response to AsiaSunset
Pete -it would be nice to win everything every year, but Penn is only one of eight schools aspiring to do just that.
I think you are referring to Meg Hair who was a highly rated WBB recruit. She suffered a serious injury her junior year after missing the entire season before that because of Covid. She returned to the team last year and was an important leader on the team although limited both physically and in terms of her on court contribution. Soph Ivanya Rogers was an ESPN top 60 recruit. She was out all last year and has struggled to regain form.
I don’t follow all Penn sports but I love lacrosse. The women did not drop out of school enmasse as 19 players on Princeton did during the Covid year. Ours stayed enrolled and the best players graduated on time only to use their 5th year at other schools. The ACC midfielder of the year last year was a top Penn player. This year the team is a little more experienced than last but still very young. My understanding is that all but one of the seniors this year will be back next year, including a significant player who is injured and out this year.
I hope this helps clarify some of your concerns.
Here's the problem going forward though, Asia: Between Padilla, Mandy McGurk, and Sydnei Caldwell, we graduate over 46% of our scoring. (That's actually even worse than it looks, because other than a 27-point fluke in the first Harvard game, McGurk couldn't score consistently against good teams.) Another 20% belongs to Jordan Obi, who has already been double teamed regularly down low in league play this season and will probably need a frickin' firearm to get any breathing room in the post next year. In league play this year, we went to an iron 6; Padilla, McGurk, Floor Toonders, and Obi all averaged over 30 minutes, with Kayla and Jordan over 35 (!). Simone Sawyer and Sydnei Caldwell filled the other spot with 18-20 mins. each. Not counting Michaela Stanfield, who only played in three games, no one else averaged even 8 mins./gm in league play. In the couple of games I watched later in the season, particularly Padilla and also Obi were really dragging at the ends of games. On the other hand, Princeton had only one player averaging over 30 minutes in league play (Kaitlyn Chen), and had 8 over 8/gm., with another at 7.9. They only graduate about 35% of their scoring, and have a lot more people who can score at least some coming back. Looking at our sophs and frosh, beyond Sawyer, only Stina Almqvist got more than 100 minutes of playing time, and much of that was either early in the season before Sawyer took over as a starter, or else against bad teams. So far, therefore, those two classes have produced one good-but-not-great player and one fill-in for garbage time. Meanwhile, Princeton already has one frosh starting and scoring more than Sawyer, and three other underclasswomen who got more than 100 minutes. Oh, did I mention that they played a way harder schedule than we did?
As far as Iyanna Rogers goes, she was an ESPN Top 60 prospect her junior year; she obviously didn't have a particularly great season senior year of HS, as she dropped out of the ESPN rankings and there's no mention of it in her bio on the Penn site. While the injury last year is unfortunate, she had already blown out her knees twice and had spinal fusion surgery for extreme scoliosis by 10th grade, so that was a known factor in recruiting. Per this, she had no P6 offers and only Cornell among the other Ivies. I don't blame McLaughlin for taking a gamble, but at this point, it seems unlikely that there will be much payoff. As far as injuries in general:
1.) OK, so we've had Hair and Rogers in the past couple of years, Kiera Ray lost 3/4 of her career to knee problems, Eleah Parker definitely seemed to be hobbled her junior year, and even poor Kayla had increasingly bigger knee braces on as the season progressed. Maybe it's time to reopen the discussion we had a few years back in regards to the men and ask if there's something about the training staff, the way they practice, or whatever, that this keeps happening.
2.) Again, you keep recruiting well, and injuries don't matter as much. After all, Princeton lost arguably the best player in the history of the league for half her junior year; Kira Emsbo never reached her potential due to injury, and there was another highly touted recruit (forgetting name) in Banghart's day who blew out her knee two straight years and never became what she should have been. Hasn't fazed them any.
And speaking of recruiting, Princeton is bringing in six players, one of whom is merely the 2nd-ranked player in Ohio and got lots of P6 offers, and another is one of the top five guards in California. At least three of these women also got offers from us, and at least one considerably earlier, so we know the fin aid matching problem didn't come in there. We're bringing in three, including these two guards you've mentioned in the past, and while I think they definitely have potential, none of their resumes impresses me in the way that Padilla's did, and they certainly were not getting the recruiting raves that some of the Princeton admits were. I'm not going to research Harvard and Columbia's recruits in depth, because this post is already too long and depressing, but we know that Columbia's greatly improved, and Harvard seems to be getting better in the last couple of years. The hard truth is that in seven games against the three best teams in the league, we got wiped out five times and were never even in the same area code with Princeton. These guards better be awesome, and some of the frosh and sophs better start developing, because otherwise we could be in for a world of hurt next year. I don't think we're going to fall as far as Dartmouth, but having one loss to Brown and two unspectacular games against Cornell this season, I can't rule even 7th place out.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-13-23 07:37 AM - Post#354018
In response to dperry
What recent Penn player has been better when they graduated than when they arrived?
They lost three times to Princeton in the same season, none of the games were close, and every game went about the same way. Essentially if Padilla and Obi were not going thermonuclear they could not beat good teams. Turns out good coaches like Berube know what to do when they only need to stop 2 players.
And as to the idea of the starters getting played into the ground, I lost count the number of second half leads they lost this year (last year, too) because the top 5 looked dead on their feet - the Brown game being the most egregious example. The starters even lost the first and fourth quarters to Dartmouth towards the end of the season.
And, little mentioned, Penn was the only one of the 'top' Ivys that had all its women enrolled during the Covid year - Yale, Columbia, Princeton and Harvard had some or all of their players take the year off from school and save a year of eligibility. Not sure what that means, but it must mean something.
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SecS3
Junior
Posts: 246
Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
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03-13-23 10:28 AM - Post#354036
In response to dperry
David, the Princeton players you were referring to as having lost significant time due to injury were Niveen Rasheed and Taylor Baur. Rasheed actually missed half of her sophomore season, and the entire Ivy season, otherwise in all likely hood would have been a three time Ivy POY, with a torn ACL. Taylor Baur was the Missouri Gatorade POY but injuries kept her from being a significant factor until her Senior year when she complemented Bella Alarie very nicely in the front court. For Princeton fans, it definitely was a shame that Kira Emsbo was never able to develop to her potential.
As to your woes, I am curious as to what happened to Silke Milliman. She was a top 100 recruit, significantly higher than Ellie Mitchell, with a ranking around seventy I believe, which is Kaitlyn Chen territory, but her on court presence has been light years removed from Mitchell or Chen. Has she had injuries that have hindered her or just not developed for some reason. It's hard to believe that the rankings could have been that far off on someone who, quite frankly, hasn't contributed that much. Also, out of curiosity, what was Kayla Padilla ranked coming in?
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2819
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-13-23 12:03 PM - Post#354050
In response to dperry
Thank you Mr. Perry. I learn more about Tiger prospects from you than from my fellow alums!
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