jeromelh
Sophomore
Posts: 157
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-30-23 08:22 PM - Post#355400
In response to penn nation
Hi Penn Fan
I strongly disagree. Can you name a few potential NBA players who do what Tosan does as a point forward. He is unique and has been recognized as such by many commentators.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 20340
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-30-23 08:46 PM - Post#355401
In response to jeromelh
There are probably any number of NBA players who share Tosan's inability to consistently hit FTs or hit from long range, but they are much taller and stronger than him and can do much more damage very close to the basket.
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jeromelh
Sophomore
Posts: 157
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-31-23 04:30 AM - Post#355404
In response to penn nation
Hi again,
If I am reading your previous post correctly, you used the word "potential" NBA players. Not NBA players.
Just consider this
1. He is still very young and can get much much stronger
2. In one year he dramatically improved his free throw percentage and 3 point shooting percentage. I expect that improvement to continue. Watching his shooting technique, he has the potential to become a decent 3 point shooter
3. Last year he was an OK defender and was constantly getting into foul trouble. He has turned into an elite defender and rarely has foul troubles.
Bottom line is that no one knows what he will be like 3-4 years from now. Also remember that he only started playing basketball 6-7 years ago.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32063
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-31-23 07:26 AM - Post#355406
In response to jeromelh
Increasing FT percentage from 56% to 65% is not "dramatic improvement."
But I think he has a shot in time. You look at a guy like Mikal Bridges--similar build, made dramatic improvement his final college year and has made himself into a helluva player. But he played at Villanova. I think Tosan needs to play higher level ball to really have a shot (and maybe that counsels a transfer rather than going into the draft-but if he signed with an agent and accepted more than meals and draft advice, I don't think he can).
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ToothlessTiger
Junior
Posts: 211
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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03-31-23 08:31 AM - Post#355412
In response to palestra38
What Tosan does he does very well. A lot of his skill set (mobility, ball handling g, PASSING) will be useful at the next level. What he needs to improve (mid range and long range shooting and FT's) are absolutely crucial if he is make it in the NBA. He did not necessarily need those skills to succeed in college. Mike Muscala is still in the NBA in a reserve role. Tosan can help a team as much as the Bucknell great has.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3553
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-31-23 02:01 PM - Post#355422
In response to jeromelh
Hi Penn Fan
I strongly disagree. Can you name a few potential NBA players who do what Tosan does as a point forward. He is unique and has been recognized as such by many commentators.
You mean 6-8 guys who can dribble, shoot, defend, and pass? Almost every current NBA player 6-9 or under can dribble, pass and defend and all of them can score. As far as NBA prospects who can do that? In the current draft pool there are a bunch:
Jett Howard, 6-8 Michigan
Kris Murray 6-8 Iowa
Drew Peterson 6-9 USC
G.G. Jackson 6-9 South Carolina
Grady Dick 6-8 Kansas
Cam Whitmore 6-7 Villanova
Dariq Whitehead, 6-7 Duke
Maxwell Lewis 6-7 Pepperdine
Kyle Filipowski, 7-0 Duke
Julian Phillips, 6-8 Tennessee
Jalen Wilson 6-8 Kansas
Julian Strawther 6-7 Gonzaga
Jaime Jacquez, 6-7 UCLA
Leonard Miller, 6-10 G League Ignite
Alex Fudge 6-10 FLorida
Every one of these guys can bring the ball up and make plays as a scorer and most were great defenders in college. There are many more but these are some of the top draft prospects out there.
Tosan has a high upside and in the right situation he could definitely develop into a much better player. Is it NBA roster upside? The odds are against that but it has happened in the past.
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jeromelh
Sophomore
Posts: 157
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-31-23 06:06 PM - Post#355439
In response to PennFan10
I haven't watched most of the names specifically except for Whitmore. Whitmore's game is nothing like Tosan's
Furthermore, I have watched a lot of basketball and have seen no one like him. Granted he needs to get stronger and improve his shooting. However, his skill set is unique. The offense runs through him.
I will be very interested to watch his performance in the summer league to see how his game translates to the pros.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3330
Reg: 02-05-10
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Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
03-31-23 08:27 PM - Post#355453
In response to jeromelh
Kyle Anderson is probably the best NBA comparison for Tosan. A 6-9, 230 glue guy best known for his passing/vision. A jack-of-all-trades currently averaging 9p/5r/5a in his 9th season.
Anderson isn't very athletic by NBA SF standards, but he's capable of defending multiple positions due to his length and agility. He even has the same half-joking nickname as Tosan: "Slow-Mo." He plays the game at his own deliberate pace and somehow it works. Not much of a shooter but can hit a wide-open 3 if necessary.
Tosan is definitely faster than Anderson, though his wingspan isn't as big.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2689
Reg: 11-23-04
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 Re: Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
03-31-23 08:37 PM - Post#355454
In response to gokinsmen
Just about all of us are pulling for Tosan. But, as PennFan observes, the odds are long for nearly anyone but a select few. Tosan still has a lot to prove. I hate to repeat this, but “only time will tell”.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3553
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-31-23 09:34 PM - Post#355456
In response to Tiger69
I will root for Today and he will get a chance. My main point is that the NBA is insanely competitive and Tosan s skill are not unique in the NBA. Lots of players can do what he does and are more athletic.
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final479
Freshman
Posts: 47
Reg: 01-18-08
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03-31-23 09:56 PM - Post#355457
In response to PennFan10
Super talented player. To the eye he looks like a classic NBA 3 and D. That's the rub, he needs to improve his shooting from distance to have a shot, Given his 'tweener size, that's his ticket.
I don't know enough about his stroke to guess if that's realistic. But here's a secret - the NBA is really good at projecting shooting talent. Meaning even if he has not made a historically high percentage from deep, scouts and the analytics folks are great at identifying the proper foundation and mechanics and projecting whether a player will ultimately be an effective shooter from distance.
Working against him is his age. He's 22, that's really pretty old for an NBA prospect, particularly one whose skill set is not fully formed. That will be a big negative to the scouts. On the other hand, he's really not played the game that long, and the NBA will view that as a sign for potential growth.
I'm rooting for him, and guessing that he puts in the time to show off markedly better shooting skills by summer league. If he does that successfully, he'll be on an NBA roster.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2689
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-01-23 01:57 PM - Post#355474
In response to final479
One thing possibly going against Tosan (at least to some eyes) is that he has plenty of options. I agree with PennFan that his odds are long and he has plenty to do to rise above his talented competition.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4599
Reg: 02-04-06
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04-01-23 02:25 PM - Post#355475
In response to Tiger69
This is a fun scouting look.
https://ivyhoopsonline.com/2023/03/31/tosan-evbu om...
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3330
Reg: 02-05-10
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Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
04-01-23 02:33 PM - Post#355476
In response to SRP
Odds are long for every non-lottery pick, but all-around players have a much better chance than one-dimensional scorers.
Jeremy Lin wasn't even a POY during his Ivy career (and got locked down by Kareem Maddox), but his all-around game was a sign that he had the talent to make it in the NBA. Even aside from Linsanity, he was a solid backup/6th man until knee injuries wore him down.
Tosan is an all-around player who can score, pass, rebound, and defend at high levels. That gives him a better chance than the typical fringe NBA prospect from the Ivy.
Miye Oni was an all-around player too, but there's no doubt that scoring was his greatest skill. And that's probably true of 90% of NBA prospects. Tosan's greatest skill is his passing/vision, which isn't rare but is far less common than scoring or rebounding among forwards.
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final479
Freshman
Posts: 47
Reg: 01-18-08
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Re: Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
04-03-23 12:16 AM - Post#355507
In response to gokinsmen
A good model for Tosan could be Grant Williams of the Celtics. An under sized post-player @ Tennessee who has made himself into a versatile 3 and D player in the pros.
Here are some of his college highlights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7rYdTLxXTA
PS I believe Williams turned down Princeton, Yale and Harvard.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3553
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
04-03-23 10:05 AM - Post#355516
In response to gokinsmen
Odds are long for every non-lottery pick, but all-around players have a much better chance than one-dimensional scorers.
Jeremy Lin wasn't even a POY during his Ivy career (and got locked down by Kareem Maddox), but his all-around game was a sign that he had the talent to make it in the NBA. Even aside from Linsanity, he was a solid backup/6th man until knee injuries wore him down.
Tosan is an all-around player who can score, pass, rebound, and defend at high levels. That gives him a better chance than the typical fringe NBA prospect from the Ivy.
Miye Oni was an all-around player too, but there's no doubt that scoring was his greatest skill. And that's probably true of 90% of NBA prospects. Tosan's greatest skill is his passing/vision, which isn't rare but is far less common than scoring or rebounding among forwards.
Maybe I don't understand your point but I would simply point out that 90% of NBA players are role players. They have 1 or 2 things they do very well for a team and they fit a specific need (thus the term 3 and D). NBA GM's are not looking at late 2nd round/FA pickups for their overall talent. Tosan is going to have to excel/project at 1 thing that a team needs to have a chance.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3553
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
04-03-23 10:58 AM - Post#355519
In response to final479
A good model for Tosan could be Grant Williams of the Celtics. An under sized post-player @ Tennessee who has made himself into a versatile 3 and D player in the pros.
Here are some of his college highlights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7rYdTLxXTA
PS I believe Williams turned down Princeton, Yale and Harvard.
Grant Williams (6-7) college stats and game are very similar to Tosan. Like Tosan, Grant Williams was a 32% 3pt shooter in college (on very few attempts--15/46 his senior yr at Tennessee) and a great defender. Williams has become a classic 3 and D guy as 40% 3pt shooter in the NBA (113/281 this year) and often matches up with opponents 2nd best option (Marcus Smart is their top defender) and is usually on the floor at end of games for defense.
This is a good comp for development for Tosan.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3330
Reg: 02-05-10
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Re: Tosan Declares for NBA Draft
04-03-23 09:21 PM - Post#355529
In response to PennFan10
Maybe I don't understand your point but I would simply point out that 90% of NBA players are role players. They have 1 or 2 things they do very well for a team and they fit a specific need (thus the term 3 and D). NBA GM's are not looking at late 2nd round/FA pickups for their overall talent.
You misunderstood my point. In fact, I totally agree with what you just said and your argument fits my point exactly. I'll put it this way...
Since - as you said - 90% of NBA players are role players, a fringe NBA prospect needs to do something other than score (which is the #1 skill of most prospects).
I'm saying Tosan has an advantage over most fringe NBA prospects because he's already shown other high level skills beyond scoring - most notably his passing and his defense. Take away his scoring ability and he's still a valuable role player - as a facilitator and defender.
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mobrien
Senior
Posts: 359
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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04-03-23 09:35 PM - Post#355530
In response to gokinsmen
The problem is role players usually don't get a chance to show off their passing ability. Taking advantage of Tosan's court vision would require him to have the ball a lot, and it would only make sense to give him that kind of usage if he was a good threat to score. His postup game so far is primarily based on overpowering lesser athletes; that won't be an option in the NBA. So he'd need to both improve his shooting and his one-on-one moves for his passing to really shine through.
All of which is to say that if he's going to make an NBA roster—which is definitely doable—it'll be because of his shooting and defense. The passing would be a nice extra, but it's not going to make or break his chance at the league. Teams aren't running their offenses through their 8th players, not even in the second unit.
There's a path to him making the league but it probably involves him toiling in the G-League for a year or two, like Jeremy Lin and Devin Cannaday, and massively improving his shooting. That's the whole ballgame.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4599
Reg: 02-04-06
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04-04-23 02:47 PM - Post#355546
In response to mobrien
Role players must be good passers in the NBA, especially when they’re on the second unit. But of course outside shooting will be critical for Tosan.
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