AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-23 09:19 AM - Post#355347
It's highly probable:
https://ivyhoopsonline.com/2023/03/26/brown-bask et...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
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Re: They Are Coming
03-30-23 09:40 AM - Post#355348
In response to AsiaSunset
Is your point the Ivies are discussing allowing athletic scholarships?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-30-23 10:35 AM - Post#355351
In response to palestra38
I don't know the law around this like others would, but the case says their are 350 Division I institutions and the IL is the only one that doesn't offer athletic scholarships. Will any court consider there are also 350+ colleges in Division III that play basketball and also don't provide scholarships?
I am interested in how this plays out. If the IL old school can get out of the way (which I highly doubt), this is a real opportunity for the IL to rise to the top with an entire league that competes with Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, etc for the top academic and athletic talent.
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palestra38
Professor
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03-30-23 10:49 AM - Post#355354
In response to PennFan10
I've given my opinion here, that it isn't price fixing nor is the Ivy League a monopoly, but given the changing landscape of college sports, the Ivies may conclude that offering scholarships is a cheap way to avoid litigation and with NILs proliferating, a better way to compete in Division 1 (well, it always was a better way to compete in Division 1).
But Asia's post has the feel of the prophesy of the Oracle of Delphi
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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03-30-23 10:55 AM - Post#355357
In response to palestra38
But Asia's post has the feel of the prophesy of the Oracle of Delphi
Love this.
It certainly seems like this case, if the IL fights, won't amount to much and it really all depends on whether the powers-that-be want to entrench or evolve.
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Streamers
Professor
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They Are Coming
03-30-23 10:56 AM - Post#355358
In response to PennFan10
The legal aspects of this are not my wheelhouse, but the facts are clear:
- This should be about ALL merit-based aid, not just athletics
- Ivy Basketball programs are not a profit center, as they are at schools like Stanford
- Does a schoolie-infused Ivy mean we aspire to be a Nova/Gonzaga style high major, a one/done Duke-style program, or just a better mid-major conference?
- Some Ivies like Penn are far better positioned to play in the big leagues than others by virtue of facilities, location, etc.
- Is going to D3 an option to avoid all of the above?
- Will Colin move this to the IL board?
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-23 12:26 PM - Post#355362
In response to Streamers
After the explosion of media attention, student and alumni pride and engagement (and presumably contributions) that followed Princeton’s run to the Sweet Sixteen, I’d be stunned if the league decided that moving to DIII was an acceptable option.
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Streamers
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03-30-23 12:44 PM - Post#355363
In response to TigerFan
The trip to 16 was a once in a decade event. A scholarship-enabled Ivy could be expected to make that routine.
I suggest that schollies might have the short-term effect of returning to a Penn-Princeton dominated conference until Harvard and Yale figure out where to play their home games and the rest decide whether they even want to play at that level. That alone might make D3 an option for the Presidents.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-30-23 01:01 PM - Post#355364
In response to TigerFan
The Ivys have perfected playing this game of treating their athletes like D3, while demanding D1 levels of commitment from them, all while claiming all the prestige a D1 program confers.
You need look no further than the IL being the only 8 schools in D1 to cancel their 20-21 sports seasons outright and THEN not lobbying for an added year for their athletes (above what every other NCAA athlete got). It's disgraceful treatment of the athletes, honestly.
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palestra38
Professor
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They Are Coming
03-30-23 01:29 PM - Post#355368
In response to CM
While I agree that Ivy administrators don't care about sports and should have given an extra year of eligibility, calling Ivy athletes mistreated is far-fetched. 18% of Princeton students are varsity athletes. Do you think that 18% are the best qualified other than the fact they play a sport? Most Ivy athletes want an Ivy education and Ivy degree--they are actually worth something, unlike many D-1 athletes and schools. There is no easier path into an Ivy institution than as an athlete (and they don't revoke your admission if you quit).
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Streamers
Professor
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03-30-23 02:00 PM - Post#355370
In response to palestra38
In some ways, we can look at the Patriot League as an indicator of what the impact scholarships might have; in their case: not all that much as far as I can tell. The big differences are that the PL has quite a bit more 'parity' and the most prestigious PL has nothing like the brand equity that any Ivy has. Ivies, in general have far more need-based funding available as well.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
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03-30-23 02:10 PM - Post#355371
In response to Streamers
The impact of scholarships in the era of NILs is much less than pre-NILs. The big time players we thought the Ivies once could get now are getting big money. And the number of players we lose to mid-majors who don't qualify for need based aid and have the grades probably isn't high.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: They Are Coming
03-30-23 02:14 PM - Post#355372
In response to palestra38
So since they're getting an 'easy' ride/degree they should be fine with not being treated like every other D1 player? Again, let's drop the facade and just make it D3.
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palestra38
Professor
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Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: They Are Coming
03-30-23 02:22 PM - Post#355375
In response to CM
I'm fine with giving scholarships--always have been. I just disagree that there is a legal right to scholarships or that athletes admitted in large part because they are athletes to institutions with less than 10% acceptance rate and on average will earn more than the vast majority of college grads due to that sheepskin are mistreated. The argument for scholarships is that it is in the Ivies' interest to revisit the outdated Ivy Agreement and bring it up to life in 2023.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: They Are Coming
03-30-23 03:31 PM - Post#355377
In response to palestra38
https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/03/ivy-l eague-p...
Padilla's comments are quite interesting.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-23 04:08 PM - Post#355381
In response to CM
It is highly likely:
1) that the Ivy League will not decide to go to D3 although that remains an option
2) that the Ivy League will file a Motion to Dismiss that will be ruled against quite quickly by the court
3) that the court will order a scheduling hearing where a calendar for discovery and trial will be set
4) that discovery if allowed to fully proceed will be extremely detrimental to the Ivy League brand. We all know the story of the Emperor with No Clothes
5) the case will settle before trial. Some sort of athletic scholarship guidelines will be agreed to. It will need to be Title IX compliant and will likely be a subset of the maximum numbers allowed by the NCAA.
6) Each school will then implement the policy in the manner they choose
I think implementation will be inclusive; that is, merit scholarships will include both student/athletes and non student athletes.
I’m guessing merit scholarships will be in addition to need based aide and that they will be divided up accordingly. So - men’s basketball may get 3 scholarships allotted but they may be divided in such a way to extend to more than 3 players.
It will happen, although the exact timing and agreement/ implementation details are to be determined.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-30-23 04:14 PM - Post#355382
In response to AsiaSunset
I'd be curious on your last point about dividing up scholarships. NCAA basketball rules do not allow scholarships to be 'split' like in other sports.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-23 04:38 PM - Post#355386
In response to CM
It’s a fair question. How many scholarships per sport will need to be determined in any settlement
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-30-23 04:38 PM - Post#355387
In response to AsiaSunset
We will see, Asia.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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They Are Coming
03-30-23 05:18 PM - Post#355391
In response to palestra38
I am not an antitrust expert.
Here is the entirety of the Class Action Complaint.
The essential legal claims are set forth in Paragraph 4
4. Defendants’ price-fixing agreement is per se illegal. It is a naked restraint of trade among horizontal competitors. The Ivy League Agreement has direct anticompetitive effects, raising the net price of education that Ivy League Athletes pay and suppressing compensation for the athletic services they provide to the University Defendants. Absent the Ivy League Agreement, these schools would determine unilaterally, and in competition with each other, how many athletic scholarships to provide, by sport, and in what amounts, and how much to compensate (either directly or through reimbursement of tuition, room, and board, or both) for athletic services.
and in Paragraph 7
7. The Ivy League Agreement is illegal, moreover, even if the “Rule of Reason” mode of antitrust analysis were to apply. The misconduct at issue occurs in two related markets: (1) the market for educational services for athletically and academically high-achieving (“AAHA”) students who seek to graduate from college and play Division 1 sports in the National Collegiate Athletic Association (“NCAA”), and (2) the market for the athletic services of the AAHA students who seek to play for the University Defendants.
I have no idea whether Paragraph 7 sets forth a legally sufficient description of a market for purposes of the antitrust law. That will certainly be a focus of the universities' Motion to Dismiss.
I have suggested to others that the fight over merit scholarships is reminiscent of the French generals fighting the last war after World War I by building the Maginot Line. By the time that the litigation is resolved with the Ivy League offering some form of merit aid to athletes (and non-athletes), the Ivy League will be able to compete with scholarship schools, but will be unable or unwilling to compete in the NIL world.
Edited by Stuart Suss on 03-30-23 05:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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