SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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 04-01-23 02:39 PM - Post#355473
In response to Stuart Suss
Interesting article from the Cornell newspaper.
https://cornellsun.com/2023/03/30/cornell-at hletes...
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-01-23 05:58 PM - Post#355486
In response to SteveChop
Steve - do you mean that It is interesting that Cornell forgot they made the Sweet 16 
This year, Princeton became only the second Ivy League team ever to make the Sweet 16 of March Madness
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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04-01-23 06:08 PM - Post#355488
In response to JDP
I think that the reference is correct depending on when the term March madness began.. I think it was after Penn went to the final four in 1979 ( the Bird versus Magic year). If that is what they mean, the reference is correct, the only two teams being Cornell and this year’s Princeton team.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-02-23 01:07 AM - Post#355497
In response to SteveChop
The term 'March Madness' was first used in reference to basketball by an Illinois high school official, Henry V. Porter, in 1939. March Madness wouldn't become associated with the NCAA tournament until Brent Musberger used it during coverage of the 1982 tournament.
I guess 1985 starts the modern era:
March Madness has been around in a four-region, 60-plus team format since 1985, when the NCAA DI men's basketball tournament expanded to 64 schools, and later 68 in 2011.
That said, and likey with red & blue glasses - I view the 1979 Tournament (mainly due to Bird & Magic) as the tournament that separates eras
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 72
Reg: 02-09-05
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04-02-23 05:35 PM - Post#355501
In response to JDP
No one forced the plaintiff athletes to attend Brown. In each case I assume they had multiple scholarship offers elsewhere. As a fan I would love to see the Ivies permit athletic scholarships. However, the lawsuit is b.s. if the athletes wanted to be compensated for their services they were free to attend elsewhere.
I think the cost of attending any of the Ivies is obscene given the multi billion dollar endowments they each have. A good argument can be made that several of the Ivies (if not all eight) should be tuition free. That being said however, any one who freely chooses to attend notwithstanding the obscene cost is not really in a position to complain.
The prime argument for compensating NCAA athletes for their “services” is that their services produce revenues for the University. That may be the case for football players at Michigan and Alabama, but is there any Ivy athletic team that generates more revenue for its school than it costs the school to operate the team??? Of course not.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4526
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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04-02-23 11:41 PM - Post#355506
In response to slane
A good argument can be made that several of the Ivies (if not all eight) should be tuition free.
Ok…So let’s hear your good argument that students who attend an Ivy League school should not have to pay tuition (or rather their parents shouldn’t pay any tuition) but students who attend Villanova or Cabrini or in my case Stevens should pay tuition.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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They Are Coming
04-03-23 07:34 AM - Post#355508
In response to Cvonvorys
Stevens has an endowment of $273 million as of 2021. Penn has an endowment of $20.7 billion as of 2022.
It's not more complicated than that.
Edited by CM on 04-03-23 07:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-03-23 09:21 AM - Post#355511
In response to CM
I think there are better uses of the Ivy’s considerable resources than providing free tuition to wealthy families, including further expansion of financial aid to middle class families. Personally, in Penn’s case, additional aid to Philadelphia city schools would be a priority.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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04-03-23 09:35 AM - Post#355512
In response to Streamers
Sure, you may be right, I was just answering the question of how one school could consider zeroing- out tuition while another could not.
Btw, I'm very curious where the subject of Penn supporting Philly city schools comes from in this discussion.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-03-23 09:55 AM - Post#355513
In response to CM
While the discussion of whether the Sherman Act requires Ivy institutions to offer athletic scholarships really doesn't pertain to either free tuition or aid to Philly schools, that's how message boards often go. The issue with Penn is that the largest employer and the second largest economic driver in Philadelphia (after Comcast) doesn't pay real estate taxes which fund the Philadelphia schools. When Rendell was Mayor, he prevailed upon Penn to pay a PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes) but later, Penn stopped paying it. Despite being an educational nonprofit, Penn is enormously profitable. Thus, there is substantial political pressure to help the schools.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-03-23 10:09 AM - Post#355515
In response to CM
Btw, I'm very curious where the subject of Penn supporting Philly city schools comes from in this discussion.
In my case, any discussion of the ultra-warped economics of higher education in the US is a trigger now that I have some additional insight as to how it works from the inside.
I understand the spirit of Stan's comment re: free tuition, but that might the worst use of Penn's very positive cash flow.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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04-03-23 11:54 AM - Post#355518
In response to palestra38
I did not know this about the local Philadelphia tax situation. Seems like that's something that needs a legislative solution.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-03-23 12:40 PM - Post#355524
In response to CM
Taxing the profitable medical properties would be a good start.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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04-03-23 08:11 PM - Post#355528
In response to Streamers
I saw a speech by Malcom Gladwell, and someone asked him what non-profit causes he supports. He said (paraphrased), "The only thing I know is that you should not give your money to your fancy colleges. Schools like Stanford, Harvard, and Yale have so much money they literally don't know what to do with it. You cannot have a meaningful impact donating to them."
I'm not against the Universities and their endowments - but people often donate to entwine their own brand with the universities' brand and/or create legacy. I agree with Gladwell that there are better causes and Universities which need the help more. If these colleges used the money to expand capacity of enrollment and locations for the betterment of society, then I'd be all in favor of giving them more.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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04-04-23 02:23 AM - Post#355531
In response to Stuart Suss
UConn winning tonight sets a framework for the Ivy League that makes sense to me. Focus on basketball as a revenue generator, and just forget about football. The Palestra is big enough to handle student demand. Penn's history in basketball is fantastic, and we are in a good recruiting / media market. Even with scholarships, and some NIL, basketball can pay for itself. There is almost no chance that could happen in football.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story...
Harvard fundraisers were clear to their alumni when Amaker raised the game for Harvard - that the return on the basketball team was the highest in the athletics program. It could be the same for the rest of the league, mainly because of TV rights.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-04-23 08:50 AM - Post#355533
In response to Penndemonium
Penn is unique among the Ivies in its ability to transition to ‘power 5’ status by virtue of location and facilities. After all, it had the first football TV deal. The ACC will soon have openings, right? Without membership in a conference that is all-in, scheduling in both sports is too challenging with or without scholarships. See the Patriot League for a preview. I do not see all the other Ivies going down the UConn road (note the mess that happened when they tried to elevate their football program, btw). I do not see Penn pulling a Notre Dame and leaving the conference for one sport. I do not see Penn ever leaving the conference altogether. I see D3 as more likely than any of the above.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-04-23 09:21 AM - Post#355534
In response to Streamers
I don't see D-3 ever as a possibility among the Ivies. Only Dartmouth is an institution which might be of the size and geographic location to benefit from that and the ego is too large. I see the Ivies putting up a vigorous fight against this lawsuit.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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04-04-23 09:37 AM - Post#355536
In response to palestra38
But the joke is that the IL athletes are essentially being treated like they're D3 anyway while being asked to compete in D1. And this lawsuit is making them vividly aware of it. I'm not convinced the toothpaste can be put back in the tube on this one.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8355
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-04-23 10:21 AM - Post#355537
In response to palestra38
I don't see D-3 ever as a possibility among the Ivies. Only Dartmouth is an institution which might be of the size and geographic location to benefit from that and the ego is too large. I see the Ivies putting up a vigorous fight against this lawsuit.
I’m not saying D3 is likely. Just more likely than my other scenarios. What do you predict? Status quo?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32916
Reg: 11-21-04
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They Are Coming
04-04-23 10:50 AM - Post#355538
In response to CM
There is no commitment in the Ivy League whatsoever. You choose to be a varsity athlete and it dramatically improves your chances of acceptance to an Ivy. You then can quit before you ever start and there are no consequences whatsoever. You keep your acceptance and financial aid.
Again, I am not against a policy allowing scholarships but I simply don't understand the argument being made that the Ivies must make individual decisions whether to offer them. This is not the same case as the Supreme Court decided with respect to prohibiting athletes from getting paid. And Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence (which clearly is the basis for the case) deals with athletes not getting a fair share of the revenue. That is not an issue in the Ivies, which is not revenue positive and the programs require significant endowment. Even to get to that argument, though, you have to limit the relevant market to the Ivies which I don't believe they can do.
Ask every athlete whether he or she would have been admitted to their school had it not been for their status as an athlete and then tell me there is no benefit to being an Ivy athlete. And then tell me, if athletes are entitled to be paid proportionately to the revenue they create, where is that revenue and how should it be distributed among all athletes?
As an aside, I broadcast Penn games while I was there. Was I entitled to be paid (statute of limitations aside) for voluntarily doing something I loved to do? Same for all the DJ's at XPN, writers for the DP, skit comics from Punch Bowl, etc?
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