JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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09-14-23 11:43 AM - Post#357941
https://thespun.com/.amp/college-hoops/divisio n-1-...
Interesting headline that came over the wire
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-14-23 01:04 PM - Post#357944
In response to JDP
"n 2021, NLRB lawyer Jennifer Abruzzo released a memo classifying college athletes in revenue-producing sports at private schools as employees. She claimed they should have the ability to unionize and negotiate workplace conditions in the evolving NIL landscape.
"The freedom to engage in far-reaching and lucrative business enterprises makes players at academic institutions much more similar to professional athletes who are employed by a team to play a sport, while simultaneously pursuing business ventures to capitalize on their fame and increase their income," Abruzzo wrote."
Dartmouth basketball is a revenue-producing sport?
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 581
Reg: 11-23-04
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Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-14-23 01:13 PM - Post#357946
In response to palestra38
I know a rhetorical question, but
Technically speaking they share in the revenues generated by the Ivy League through the NCAA tournament and TV and like contracts.
Given all the money the Princeton men generated for the Ivy League by making it to the Sweet 16, should the student-athletes not be able to share in a portion of that revenue?
Edited by JDP on 09-14-23 01:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-14-23 01:31 PM - Post#357947
In response to JDP
Even with that money (1/9 of the Princeton money), I doubt Dartmouth basketball is revenue positive. And you have to balance that with all the years of first round exits. But I'll admit I don't know that answer--it is just my conjecture.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1348
Reg: 12-08-04
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09-15-23 08:07 AM - Post#357959
In response to palestra38
If they don't share directly in the proceeds, what "employment" conditions are the players seeking? Limiting academic obligations? Fewer practice hours? Approval over coaching hires?
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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09-15-23 02:14 PM - Post#357966
In response to sparman
https://sports.yahoo.com/seiu-lays-claim-dartm outh...
- Even if Dartmouth men’s basketball players are employees, that might not make it true for some other D-I schools. Ivy League schools have agreed to not offer athletic scholarships (a topic at issue in an on-going antitrust litigation), while basketball players at D-I colleges are “paid” in a sense via athletic scholarships. Whether an athletic scholarship changes the calculus of employee recognition is unclear and could itself become a source of litigation.
By pursuing unionization, the Dartmouth men’s basketball players make it more difficult for their university to simply cut the team. It’s been speculated that if college athletes are deemed employees, some schools will fear the economic ramifications and then cut teams and convert them into club sports. Labor law would complicate the process of severing teams, given that the school would not just be a school—it would also be a would-be employer.
Dartmouth has an established tradition with student workers as union members. The Student Worker Collective at Dartmouth is a union for students who work in dining services. The union says it is wants to ensure “every community member who labors for Dartmouth has a say in its governance.” Dartmouth is a sensible place for a sports team to pursue unionization in the same vein as their classmates, and it’s not clear that the university—with its tradition of recognizing student labor and open-minded response to Wednesday’s filing—will necessarily push back to stop it. -
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-15-23 02:53 PM - Post#357968
In response to JDP
Dartmouth Athletics is fast becoming an unmitigated dumpster fire.
https://www.vnews.com/dartmouth-sports-anal ysis-51...
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8317
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-15-23 06:47 PM - Post#357975
In response to palestra38
Even with that money (1/9 of the Princeton money), I doubt Dartmouth basketball is revenue positive. And you have to balance that with all the years of first round exits. But I'll admit I don't know that answer--it is just my conjecture.
That was my reaction upon seeing the original article. More to the point, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the players have to gain from this. Work rules? Overtime pay? They already have the right to their NIL money, and many are likely on scholarship of some kind. If anything, this would hasten the process of converting the team to club status... so much for job security.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1348
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-15-23 07:05 PM - Post#357978
In response to Streamers
Maybe demand right to participate in the ILT.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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09-18-23 10:41 AM - Post#357991
In response to sparman
https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2023/09/haski ...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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09-18-23 11:14 AM - Post#357992
In response to CM
The irony I always see in these arguments is that if the Ivies offered athletic scholarship, most of these players wouldn't be on the teams.
I do see the point on health care--no way the players should have to pay deductibles due to athletic injuries.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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09-18-23 12:59 PM - Post#357995
In response to palestra38
So your contention is that if not for Ivys being non-scholarship, thus making them generally undesirable programs, these guys would all be D3?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 01:11 PM - Post#357996
In response to CM
Obviously not all, but a fair percentage, yes..or on scholarship at less academically competitive schools. In other words, they would be much less likely to obtain an Ivy degree, which is worth considerably more than whatever compensation they claim they should be entitled to receive (aside from the health care issue, which is unfair, to say the least).
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 01:15 PM - Post#357997
In response to palestra38
Huh, weird, most of the Ivy basketball players I know had multiple D1 offers and chose IL not because it was the easiest path but because of the other things that were offered.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 01:16 PM - Post#357998
In response to CM
Do you contest the argument that if the Ivies allowed scholarships, they would be far more competitive in terms of talent level??
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 01:33 PM - Post#358000
In response to palestra38
I do not, but that's different than saying the current players do not have D1 ability.
Fwiw, there's 90 D1 programs that DO offer scholarships that finished worse than Dartmouth last year.
Edited by CM on 09-18-23 01:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32883
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 02:06 PM - Post#358001
In response to CM
Just to clarify--you said it, and I agreed in part. At least 3-4 players on each Ivy team are there for their grades. But those 90 or so D-1 programs worse than Dartmouth are not necessarily where a player at Dartmouth would prefer to go over a Williams or Amherst.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Dartmouth Men's College Basketball Team Attempting To Unionize
09-18-23 02:33 PM - Post#358002
In response to palestra38
Excellent point.
In any event, if you'd had "Dartmouth MBB filing to unionize' as a pre-season storyline in IL hoops I definitely would not have believed you.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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11-08-23 01:44 PM - Post#358912
In response to CM
Dartmouth starts season while pushing for union
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story...
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