91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-10-23 09:25 AM - Post#358978
6:30 start on espn+
From the game notes:
The Hawks—81-60 winners over Lafayette in their season opener on Monday—were picked fifth in the Atlantic 10's preseason poll, earning 257 voting points from that league's panel of coaches and media. In addition, Erik Reynolds was named to the A-10 Preseason All-Conference First Team while Cameron Brown was selected to the A-10 Preseason All-Conference Third Team.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32849
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: St. Joes
11-10-23 09:30 AM - Post#358979
In response to 91Quake
St Joe's has been rebuilding nicely under the post-Phil Martelli regime (Martelli is interim head coach at Michigan now because Juwan Howard had heart surgery). This will be a tough game. I took a look at tickets ---$35 for upstairs behind the basket, $55 for non-seatbacks and $65 for seatbacks. Hard to imagine that they get casual fans at those prices.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8269
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: St. Joes
11-10-23 10:05 AM - Post#358980
In response to 91Quake
SJU is at KP 100 - right next to Princeton. They are 6.5 pt favorites, which is s a little low technically, but I suspect the oddsmakers shaved it a bit given the history of Big 5 matchups.
This team has quite of experience overall and playing together. They will certainly not take us likely. Penn will need to play a very clean game, defend with determination, and shoot well to take this.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 587
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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Re: St. Joes
11-10-23 10:10 AM - Post#358981
In response to 91Quake
6:30 start on espn+
From the game notes:
The Hawks—81-60 winners over Lafayette in their season opener on Monday—were picked fifth in the Atlantic 10's preseason poll, earning 257 voting points from that league's panel of coaches and media. In addition, Erik Reynolds was named to the A-10 Preseason All-Conference First Team while Cameron Brown was selected to the A-10 Preseason All-Conference Third Team.
According to Penn Athletics Website game is also on NBC Sports Philadelphia
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4488
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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Re: St. Joes
11-10-23 02:26 PM - Post#358984
In response to Charlie Fog
SPOILER ALERT…. Chuck Daly visited me last night to tell me Penn wins by 6. Clark and George both sink clutch free throws down the stretch. Oh…. And don’t panic when Penn falls behind by double digits in the first half.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-10-23 04:10 PM - Post#358986
In response to Cvonvorys
This will be a real switch from John Jay and Bucknell at home. Now we'll see what this team's composure under pressure is like. If they can execute under pressure, that would make me much more optimistic for the year ahead.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32849
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-23 04:13 PM - Post#358987
In response to Penndemonium
If they can win this game, I would be enormously more optimistic about the quality of this team.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-10-23 04:57 PM - Post#358988
In response to palestra38
Heck, if they could keep it close then there's reason for some optimism.
It was nice that the team did what they were supposed to do against Bucknell but it's hard to gauge how that performance translates against a good mid-major.
We'll see how Perkins plays against more athletic opposition. He's already established himself as the best player on the team - not a huge surprise given his HS reputation though it's still nice to see that he's the real deal.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8269
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-23 05:24 PM - Post#358990
In response to TheLine
It will be interesting to see whom they put on him.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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St. Joes
11-10-23 06:51 PM - Post#358991
In response to Streamers
From Perkins' high school videos, it was clear he could drive to the hoop. I didn't know if he would have an outside shot or be a good passer. He is somewhat like Dingle on his outside shot. It's not the purest of shots, but he can make them fall. He is a very pleasant surprise on keeping court vision while he dribbles. I saw some good playmaking. Some of his 5 assists were very nice looks and I saw him alert to his teammates at almost all times.
St. Joe's should leave narrower shooting, penetration and passing lanes. It will be interesting to see how Perkins reacts.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-23 07:48 PM - Post#358992
In response to Penndemonium
Spinoso as out-of-it to start this one as he was the entire game the other night.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-23 07:54 PM - Post#358994
In response to Chip Bayers
Sloppy, poor shooting, and somehow only down 4 at the under 12:00 media break thanks to SJU’s own sloppiness.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 08:19 PM - Post#358995
In response to Chip Bayers
St. Joes doing a good job on defense crashing the lane. Neither team shooting particularly well from outside, hopefully we see a regression to the mean.
One thing that worries me slightly is that we have not gotten great looks on the inside against a tougher opponent.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 09:28 PM - Post#358998
In response to Quake Show
Penn with some fight to get it within two, then in typical Penn fashion:
Can't box out on the 1-and-1, give up an easy bucket
Can't hit free throws, blocked on the offensive board.
Sloppy turnover on a fast break.
Slightly under 2 remaining. Let's see if we can get some buckets.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 09:31 PM - Post#358999
In response to Quake Show
Spinoso with some really bad rebounding on both ends & outsized / outrun on interior defense. Give up an easy bucket, SJU lead up to 7.
Perkins turns it over on the other end. SJU ball with 30 seconds left. This game is over.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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11-10-23 09:45 PM - Post#359000
In response to Quake Show
Clark certainly is the real thing. Back to earth for Tyler. Defense and rebounding have improved. More driving to the hope but poor finishes. 36% from two. 6-1 from the line.
Encouraging for a team with so many new participants.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 09:46 PM - Post#359001
In response to Quake Show
Slajcert the only quaker in double figures tonight in a great effort:
27 points on 11-17 (65%) shooting, 5-8 (63%) 3PT, 2 TOs.
Rest of team does not come close:
34 points on 12-45 (27%) shooting, 4-16 (25%) 3PT, 14 TOs.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 09:49 PM - Post#359002
In response to Quake Show
What isn't in the box score, however, is the great fight this team put up to cut the lead from I think 19 to 2 during the second half. Couldn't get the job done but that was certainly a bright spot.
Very young team for sure, but our upcoming opponents will almost certainly expose mistakes more than St. Joes.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4915
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-10-23 09:59 PM - Post#359005
In response to Quake Show
Those are huge, efficient numbers for Slacjert. Were the Hawks not doubling or rotating his way? Did he have a lot of assist-worthy passes where his teammates just missed?
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 10:52 PM - Post#359011
In response to SRP
I didn't catch the whole game unfortunately, I recall as he got hot they definitely did make an effort to double or trap him behind the three point line.
It actually seemed like SJU was more concerned with Perkins given his size advantage as a guard; their defense made him a complete non-factor in the first half.
Penn tries to remove the opportunity for a double by running 3-4 ball screens through a big at the top of the key to start off most possessions, which I find frustrating because they run off most of the clock. I guess this allowed Slajcert to come off the screen with a one on one opportunity, in which he can be quite shifty as we know.
Slajcert interestingly was matched on Greer when we ran a man defense, while Greer was not matched on Slajcert on the other end. Greer being their smallest guard, and Clark ours.
I don't think Penn was able to get a lot of great looks outside of individuals creating space, which is probably the core of why Slajcert was efficient when everyone else was less so. Some backdoor cuts, but this is the different style of Donahue offense we saw being rolled out last year versus a more traditional Princeton offense.
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Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
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11-10-23 10:54 PM - Post#359012
In response to Quake Show
Meanwhile, Yale at #11 Gonzaga is shaping up to be an incredible game. 43-40 Zags with 1:13 left in the first.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-10-23 11:18 PM - Post#359016
In response to Quake Show
That killer offensive rebound for St. joes on the 1 and 1 was weird. Spinoso appeared to take his eye off his man and boxed out the closest body — who turned out to be thrower, I believe. Just an instance of Spinoso turning to look at the ball a beat too soon.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-10-23 11:22 PM - Post#359019
In response to SomeGuy
Spinoso really, really needs to pull his noggin out of the orifice in which he’s buried it to start the season.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-11-23 04:30 PM - Post#359042
In response to Chip Bayers
I think he’ll be fine. Guys make mistakes, have bad stretches, etc. How you respond defines you. I still think this is ultimately Clark and Nick’s team (in a good way). As teams continue to realize the other three spots on the floor can hurt them too, I think you’ll see things start to get easier for Spinoso. I think you already saw it last night, with st Joe’s focusing on Perkins rather than Clark (at their peril).
More general positives of last night. Rebounding continues to be a revelation. This is an area where Perkins and Thrower appear to be a big improvement over Dingle, at least so far. Great to see us win the boards against a tougher opponent. The team also showed some serious grit coming back. With a young team, we could have folded. We didn’t. And finally, defense. It’s early, but we lost last night due to the offense. This is a surprise and a reversal from the last couple of years. Again, surprising to lose Monroe and Martz and have that be the case. But so far we are defending well. That Holland/Laz/Walter rotation may be key. Kind of like rotating defensive linemen — we’re keeping the active energy guys fresh, and almost always have one on the floor.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2140
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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St. Joes
11-11-23 05:12 PM - Post#359045
In response to SomeGuy
I thought youth and lack of game experience were what contributed most to the loss. St. Joe's guards were more experienced, quicker and more decisive than Perkins and Thrower, both of whom were out of rhythm for most of the game. Perkins made some good plays in our second half run.
Overall, I thought the Hawks just outmuscled us. Spinoso had to deal with a 7', 285 lb force of nature in the post. Not an easy task, even when you're 6'9" and 240 lbs. Gerhart did the best he could off the bench, but he looked overmatched. The fact that no one other than Slajchert managed to get to double figures in scoring was problematic.
Coming back from 19 down, getting to within two possessions showed me something. I am also encouraged to see that the team didn't fold.
I hope they continue to get better.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 11-11-23 05:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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St. Joes
11-11-23 05:50 PM - Post#359046
In response to Quake Show
I watched the first half live, but had to finish the second half on replay.
Random Observations:
- Best game I've seen from Slajchert, I think. He was controlled, shot the ball well, and handled the pressure well. He's not the best assist PG ever, but he is strong with ball-handling and scoring.
- Thrower showed me something today. Even though he didn't shoot well, turned ball the over several times, and made defensive mistakes... he played a bit more aggressively and showed he could penetrate and may eventually provide more ball-handling. I wasn't sure what he had in his toolset from the other games. Now I can see a path for him. His decision-making and game feel will need to improve a lot, but at least he had a motor today. He will need to hit his shots, though. Having a strength in shooting is negated when you miss most of your shots!
- Perkins - even though it wasn't a strong game from him, he showed me he can contribute in many different ways. I think a lot of mistakes were due to playing a team that was far bigger and more athletic than the other two. He is a keeper. I'd like to see his mentality shift to being even more active and imposing on the game. ROY.
- Holland. This game, I watched him closely, often ignoring the regular game-flow to just study his off-the-ball play. I saw some good things, and some not so good. I do not fault him for anything - he is playing hard. He doesn't play too forcefully against big men - he doesn't use his lower core well. He has athleticism but isn't playing with guard quick-twitch. I watch Laz and Walter being far more active on their toes, making much better cuts, and being in the right place for rebounds. I am seriously rooting for Holland, but I can't help but wonder if they should get more time - they just put themselves in the right place to make things happen.
- Laz and Walter - see above. They are outperforming my expectations. I can't fully explain it, but they are working hard. I was marveling at Walter's performance yesterday but then he got burned badly at the end by a SJ guard on a switch for one of the critical end-of-game possessions. I'm still happy with him overall. Laz is just engaged all of the time. He is watching and moving throughout. He doesn't hang out on the wing - if he isn't getting the ball, he looks for a moment to cut to the paint. He finds open space, which puts him in position for a feed or else a stray rebound.
- Spinoso - I saw him making many more passes and trying to fill the high post playmaker yesterday. He made far too many turnovers, but his looks were good. Jury is out. His motor is good, he fills space, and he hunts rebounds. I wish a coach would help him groove how the ball leaves his fingers on his short range shots. The ball needs to leave his chosen 1-2 fingers like it's on a rail, rather than just a flip from his hand. He needs to add a little loft, or else use the backboard all of the time. If he starts making more of his bunnies, he will be a much bigger force. That would change the look of our team more than anything else. Having an inside threat would unlock more of the SD offense.
Overall team and Donahue - this team plays hard, never loses its effort, and looked well coached to me. They are playing harder on defense than some of the recent teams over the years, though they need to clamp down even a bit more. I noticed a huge difference between the picks and screens set by St. Joe's and ourselves. The on-the ball defender could not fight their way through a St. Joe's screen. Penn's screener tended to drop off for the dump pass, so the screens really didn't make that much space for the dribbler. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not. St. Joe's never had to switch and was never confused on defense by our screens. I'd also like to see more double-screens and curls for our shooters. Our screens are not putting enough pressure on the other team.
I'm enjoying watching this team.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: St. Joes
11-11-23 05:57 PM - Post#359047
In response to weinhauers_ghost
That St. Joe's big man in the middle was huge. He looked like he had just eaten a few other players before the game. Their PF was also big, athletic, and really good. I don't relish seeing the huge guy for 3 more years.
Our team didn't have perfect composure, but we never completely lost it. They never stopped working and following their game plan.
I thought youth and lack of game experience were what contributed most to the loss. St. Joe's guards were more experienced, quicker and more decisive than Perkins and Thrower, both of whom were out of rhythm for most of the game. Perkins made some good plays in our second half run.
Overall, I thought the Hawks just outmuscled us. Spinoso had to deal with a 7', 285 lb force of nature in the post. Not an easy task, even when you're 6'9" and 240 lbs. Gerhart did the best he could off the bench, but he looked overmatched. The fact that no one other than Slajchert managed to get to double figures in scoring was problematic.
Coming back from 19 down, getting to within two possessions showed me something. I am also encouraged to see that the team didn't fold.
I hope they continue to get better.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-13-23 02:46 PM - Post#359095
In response to Penndemonium
I was able to watch the game on replay. Glad they didn't fold and put up a fight. My general thoughts:
- Very nice game by Clark, that was vintage Clark and hope we see more of it.
- Spinoso has looked more like fresh version of himself than soph version, we need him to be a scoring threat inside so hope he comes around quickly.
-Perkins was the first time he looked like a freshman, and hopefully a learning experience for him.
-Thrower is going to need his shooting to come around quickly or I think George Smith will take his starting role (his defense continues to be excellent and he is hitting occasional 3).
-Holland I thought put in very good minutes in second half and this shows you the kind of skills you can get if we stick with him. He can hit 3's, he can put the ball on the floor, he draws fouls better than probably anyone on the team, and he hits free throws. He can be a good offensive rebounder. He blocks shots. When he didn't start the second half, when he came in he looked hungry and did a number of things that stood out. I think if the staff can keep him aggressive he will continue to start. I think the overall rotation at the 4 is good though and like all the kids putting in minutes.
Tonight will be much tougher to be honest, Nova is essentially a transfer super team from various squads, so they are very experienced (even if not experienced as a squad together). Probably no better time to get them than early since they are still learning how to play together. Let's see if we can keep it close.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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St. Joes
11-13-23 03:38 PM - Post#359096
In response to Mike Porter
Good point on Smith. He is playing like a vet and clearly settles the team down. It isn't clear whether we need him more as a starter or off the bench, but either way he may take Thrower minutes. His strength, composure, and shooting are needed out there. Thrower is probably the better pure shooter, but is still getting used to getting his shot off at college speed. Right now, I trust Smith to take a big shot a bit more. He gets rebounds, breaks pressure, and may be our most determined player on defense. I loved watching him push against very good screens and pick up players very early on defense.
Villanova will obviously be a tough matchup. If St. Joe's seemed big and athletic, Villanova will be at another level. The key will be crisp ball movement, as their defense will clamp down any time we have the ball being dribbled or held in place. They will be most vulnerable on team defense vs. good passing. I'm guessing they all come in with strong one-on-one capabilities.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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11-15-23 06:49 PM - Post#359240
In response to Penndemonium
St. Joe might finally be able to give Nova a good game this year and maybe even win. Also they play Princeton in a couple of weeks so that will be one data point for how the Ivy League season might go.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-16-23 02:54 AM - Post#359288
In response to OldBig5
St. Joe's looked more impressive. The guards were good and the forwards were big and athletic. I'd predict a St. Joe's win, rankings notwithstanding. Nova looked like it was still finding its identity.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8269
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-16-23 08:45 AM - Post#359293
In response to Penndemonium
St. Joe's looked more impressive. The guards were good and the forwards were big and athletic. I'd predict a St. Joe's win, rankings notwithstanding. Nova looked like it was still finding its identity.
Essandoko Is still a work in progress but it will be interesting to see how Nova tries to matchup with him.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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11-16-23 10:27 PM - Post#359326
In response to Streamers
St. Joe's looked more impressive. The guards were good and the forwards were big and athletic. I'd predict a St. Joe's win, rankings notwithstanding. Nova looked like it was still finding its identity.
Essandoko Is still a work in progress but it will be interesting to see how Nova tries to matchup with him.
Every time a Penn player bounced off of him I thought "Oh Christ".
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