91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-25-23 02:42 PM - Post#359677
On to the next one at 4:30 on ESPN+. Penn favored by 2.5 which is basically homecourt advantage.
It will be interesting to see how the minutes are handed out after yesterday's game.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-25-23 05:26 PM - Post#359688
In response to 91Quake
Sam Brown will be starting instead of Cam Thrower.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 06:02 PM - Post#359690
In response to Stuart Suss
Belmont is #200 Pomeroy, and we are #193. Essentially an equal rating with our team having home court advantage. Plenty of variance to make this interesting. 
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-25-23 06:09 PM - Post#359691
In response to Penndemonium
This new sideline reporter does NOT have a voice fit for broadcast.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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11-25-23 08:02 PM - Post#359694
In response to Chip Bayers
That was a winnable game we coughed up. I I listened to most of the second half in the car heading back into the city and got home in time to see the last two minutes of regulation plus overtime. I thought we went cold in the overtime, and I wasn't sure why we ditched the zone that had given Belmont fits for most of the second half.
That last possession where we failed to get a shot off was terrible.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-25-23 08:04 PM - Post#359695
In response to Chip Bayers
So much good feeling about Spinoso’s offense today, and then that final brainlock turnover to efffectively end the game.
Slajchert and Perkins both looked like they had second day of a back-to-back legs. Lots of shots left short. Will be interesting to see how much they have left tomorrow.
Dia, who made a huge difference for them, barely played yesterday and was by far the bounciest guy on the floor.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Belmont
11-25-23 08:06 PM - Post#359696
In response to weinhauers_ghost
That was a winnable game we coughed up. I I listened to most of the second half in the car heading back into the city and got home in time to see the last two minutes of regulation plus overtime. I thought we went cold in the overtime, and I wasn't sure why we ditched the zone that had given Belmont fits for most of the second half.
That last possession where we failed to get a shot off was terrible.
Didn’t see us ditch the zone—played it on most possessions in OT. We got burned more than once in OT by Belmont attacking it in the middle with 12-foot jumpers.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-25-23 08:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Belmont
11-25-23 10:45 PM - Post#359700
In response to Chip Bayers
The matchup zone looked much more like man to man than it did a zone. Could also be due to the fact that I spent the better part of the afternoon stuck on I-95 south coming from Rhode Island. It's great fun driving while the sun is directly in one's field of vision even with the sun visor deployed and wearing sunglasses.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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11-26-23 12:40 AM - Post#359702
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Two shots from bench players. For all of Laz and Smith's intangibles, their offensive tangibles are weak. Smith needs little guarding on the perimeter. Laz needs none.
Penn is now ranked 213 on Ken Pom with a 273 defensive ranking. KP projects 5 Ivy wins. Princeton is now ranked 54, Yale 78, Cornell 103 and Harvard 131.
This looks like a very long season. Penn has only three players on offense right now. A good team has six or more. All we can hope for is that Perkins, Brown and Gerhart develop.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-23 12:12 PM - Post#359710
In response to UPIA1968
Modern sports have evolved but in the end the principals remain constant; that is, the winning team needs to score the most points.
With the pace of college basketball in this era, I’ve noticed Penn teams generally need to score 75 points in regulation time to consistently win. Unfortunately, we didn’t shoot the ball well enough yesterday to do that.
To Steve’s credit he tried to mix things up a bit. He started Sam ( who was shaky, but will relax over time). I also noticed that Nick actually tried to make someone guard him at the 3 point line. Neither move paid dividends, but I think both will over time.
Clearly the team doesn’t have enough scoring on the floor when George is out there. He must shoot the ball. Yes - he contributed in other ways. You need to play defense and rebound. But - in the end - the game is basically about putting the ball in the basket.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Belmont
11-26-23 02:01 PM - Post#359715
In response to AsiaSunset
It’s strange that our team defense is ranked so poorly. I don’t think it is great, but the effort has looked noticeably better to me than in the recent past.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-23 02:21 PM - Post#359716
In response to Penndemonium
The team is playing hard which is a good sign, but a good offensive player generally can beat a good defensive player. It’s been that way since they eliminated the hand check.
The effort is there. They just need to put the ball in the basket.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Belmont
11-26-23 02:54 PM - Post#359717
In response to Penndemonium
A good defensive team does not give up 50% shooting. Nor is a good defensives team ranked 315th in opponent turnovers.
Defense is so much harder to evaluate visually than offense. That's why Ken Pom's stats are so useful.
Princeton is ranked 90 in defense. They beat Monmouth by 25 on the road. Today's game at the Palestra will provide us a useful gauge of the gap between the programs.
Oh, and remember that the Pussies lost at least as much from lasts year's team as Penn. Their two best players are sophomores. Penn has two sophomores who got 12 and 7 minutes last night, scoring two points between them.
Put differently, in the Sophomore-Senior classes Penn has two players who can score. Add Perkins and you have the lonely three. Remember that the AJ/Forman team had seven: AJ, Rothchild, Wood, Woods, Betley, Devon, and Foreman. This year looks more and more like a lost year.
Next year, Penn lose its best scorer leaving them with just two known scorers. Is somebody going to mysteriously blossom? Maybe its Brown. Probably we will have to wait for more Freshmen. In two years Penn will have but one scorer known to us today. That leaves us with the sobering thought that we will have to hope that a poorly recruiting staff will suddenly strike gold, or we will have to wait until Steve retires.
I remind you that it is now 16 years since Penn has had a consistent contender. How the program has fallen.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-23 05:45 PM - Post#359726
In response to UPIA1968
The idea that there were 7 scorers on the Brodeur/Foreman team is the funniest thing I’ve read here in a long, long time.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Belmont
11-26-23 07:35 PM - Post#359729
In response to Chip Bayers
Agreed. Brodeur and Betley were our only good offensive players. Foreman was bad on offense for 3.5 of his years, but then suddenly became an incredible hero on offense in the second half of his senior season. I can't remember if that was one of the seasons when Betley was injured for a long time.
As for the program falling, I'm afraid that NIL will make a bad situation worse. I can't imagine the Ivies opening up big NIL budgets. The fact that Penn outsourced a lot of its NIL management makes me think they aren't striving to do something exceptional. I think our dreams of becoming nationally competitive are getting more distant. There's plenty of evidence that we aren't going to be a perennial league winner, so I'm just trying to enjoy what we have. I don't get the sick feeling watching this team that I did under Miller and Allen. These kids play hard all game, seem to be great teammates, and are fun to root for. I always expected them to be up and down on wins and losses.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32833
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Belmont
11-26-23 07:52 PM - Post#359732
In response to Penndemonium
Caleb wood was a very solid offensive player that year
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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11-26-23 08:17 PM - Post#359735
In response to Chip Bayers
Which of the seven I listed was not a decent scorer?
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Belmont
11-26-23 09:37 PM - Post#359746
In response to UPIA1968
Pennedemonium already explained this.
P38 is right that Wood came closest to a reliable 3rd scorer after Brodeur and Betley, especially in Ivy play. But he only played 49% of available minutes on the season. Hard to count on a guy who’s not on the floor a majority of the time.
Foreman as noted was far from reliable until the final 3 games of the regular season in ‘18 and in the two Ivy Sadness wins. He was in single digits in 2/3 of the games prior to that, shot only 27% from 3, and only made it into a positive ORat because of his high assist rate.
Rothschild had a negative ORat and scored in double digits in only 11 of 32 games. He scored more than 11 points all of 5 times.
Antonio Woods scored in double digits in all of 3 of the 16 Ivy games, and was in single digits for the final 10, including Ivy Sadness.
Goodman was barely a rotation player that year, with far more DNPs (8) than games in double digits (3). He had a horrid 90 ORat and shot 27% from 3.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-26-23 09:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Belmont
11-26-23 09:57 PM - Post#359751
In response to Chip Bayers
Foreman as noted was far from reliable until the final 3 games of the regular season in ‘18 and in the two Ivy Sadness wins. He was in single digits in 2/3 of the games prior to that, shot only 27% from 3, and only made it into a positive ORat because of his high assist rate.
I thought Foreman was better than that...and he was. I count roughly half (not 2/3rds) of the games before the last 6 that he played in single digits. And even in those, he scored between 7-9 points in half of them.
He just willed his way to do everything that senior year. It was how he scored (and rebounded, and defended) that really stood out, more than anything.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-26-23 10:13 PM - Post#359752
In response to penn nation
Fine, I’ll amend to less than half his games before the stretch run.
But nowhere near the night-in, night-out production you could expect from Brodeur and Betley.
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