palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-09-23 07:59 PM - Post#360359
A very sad day today in Penn history. A combination of bad messaging obscures that Liz Magill gave exactly the right answer to the wrong question. A blowhard hypocrite,Elise Stefanik, a Harvard alum who was fairly liberal until she held her finger up to the Republican wind, asked Magill whether calling for genocide of Jews constituted harassment under Penn's code of conduct. Problem was that no one was calling for the genocide of Jews. There was a protest march with people chanting "From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free." That's political sloganeering with people making the legitimate argument, whether or not one believes in it, that Palestinians have an equal right to live in the land of their ancestors, as do the Jews. Characterizing something like that as a call for genocide is just ridiculous and makes the mission of the University to sponsor debate and opposing points a view a lost cause in our increasingly Orwellian land, where a woman carrying a dead fetus is being forced to give birth and people are being shot up with the absurd "freedom to kill" that has been written into the Constitution by extremely wealthy people who benefit from everyone else being at each other's throats while they make more and more money. It's absolutely disgusting what happened today, that Liz Magill was not prepared to answer the ridiculous question that clearly was coming (perhaps it can be said she was over her head) and that Penn's donors believe that criticism of Israel by third parties should be suppressed by the University as a condition to their donations. Overall, a very very sad day.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 08:24 PM - Post#360361
In response to palestra38
Agreed.
Here is the relevant information regarding Penn's policies about free speech:
https://supporting-our-co mmunity.upenn.edu/free-sp...
Magill's responses adhered to those guidelines but sadly she came across as a bumbling, incompetent and insensitive bureaucrat.
I've often found myself frustrated listening to Congressional testimonies over the past decade for this very reason. Witnesses will often plead the 5th, refuse to directly answer questions, or twist themselves into legalese so that they do not run afoul of the law, while looking very foolish in the process.
This ouster of not just McGill but Bok is part of the much larger culture wars (and Rowan and Lauder started raising havoc here even before 10/7, with the Palestine Literature Festival, which is what the current mess is a continuation of). It's left wing free speech that they want to prohibit, plain and simple. But when it's a right winger, then you'll hear them rally around the First Amendment and kvetch about so-called "cancel culture".
Edited by penn nation on 12-09-23 08:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4008
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 08:35 PM - Post#360363
In response to palestra38
Amen, well done.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 412
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-09-23 08:56 PM - Post#360364
In response to Old Bear
Agreed, a very sad day for Penn and the rest of us too. P38 and PN nailed it.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 341
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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12-09-23 09:07 PM - Post#360365
In response to Tiger81
Stefanik crowing "1 down, 2 to go" was simply nauseating.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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12-09-23 09:15 PM - Post#360366
In response to Tiger81
I don't think any of us know what any individual palestinian or other student believes when they chant the phrase. However it is clear that Hamas and its sponsors in Iran want the destruction of Israel. So when student groups refuse to condemn the evil acts of Hamas on October 7 it's easy to see why Jews are upset. If they said we condemn what Hamas did but we want to be free that could make a difference. If you don't come out against what Hamas did I don't have much sympathy. If any other group perceives it is being threatened universities are quick to act. Should we just tell jewish students to ignore the slogan if they perceive it as threatening?
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andybech
Freshman
Posts: 83
Reg: 02-15-20
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12-09-23 09:30 PM - Post#360367
In response to OldBig5
I do wonder how sometimes people can be so legalistic in answers to simple questions. It should have been easy to say that calls for genocide would be against Penn's code but the speech in question was not clearly genocide.
I think most of these groups are condemning the Hamas attack but also recognizing that they have legitimate grievances. The phrase "from the river to the sea" was not originally a call for genocide. It was a call for free elections in Palestine for everyone. Now it clearly has been co-opted over the years by extremist groups, but it is not as if the right wing fringes of Netanyahu's cabinet are not saying the same thing from the other direction.
We need both governments/leaders to go.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 09:31 PM - Post#360368
In response to OldBig5
As a bit of background--I was extremely active in the organized Jewish community as a Penn undergrad. It is disturbing to hear about some of what is currently happening on campuses such as Penn's. That was not my college experience (nor is it my experience where I currently teach, at a wonderfully diverse place).
But shouldn't universities be the very places where there are opportunities to learn about and debate the origins, meanings and (if you'll excuse the term) contexts of phrases that evoke such a wide variety of emotions? Perspectives taught from groups of a variety of different religious and political views from Gaza, Israel and the West Bank?
This is what folks like Lauder and Rowan want to shut down.
I don't think any of us know what any individual palestinian or other student believes when they chant the phrase. However it is clear that Hamas and its sponsors in Iran want the destruction of Israel. So when student groups refuse to condemn the evil acts of Hamas on October 7 it's easy to see why Jews are upset. If they said we condemn what Hamas did but we want to be free that could make a difference. If you don't come out against what Hamas did I don't have much sympathy. If any other group perceives it is being threatened universities are quick to act. Should we just tell jewish students to ignore the slogan if they perceive it as threatening?
Edited by penn nation on 12-09-23 09:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:00 PM - Post#360370
In response to penn nation
#%$@ these hedge fund bozos trying to impose a speech code (the suggested version in that Wharton board of advisors letter was absurd).
But the Boston Globe has now revealed the real villains: the lawyers. If WilmerHale offers to prep you for congressional testimony, run away.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:26 PM - Post#360371
In response to Chip Bayers
As a lawyer, I was stunned just how badly Magill was prepared to answer the question that obviously was going to be thrown at her. Too many law firms charing $1100 per hour are totally incompetent when it comes to preparing a witness to testify.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23549
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:29 PM - Post#360372
In response to palestra38
They asked her the easiest question in the world four times and she blew it every time. She has damaged our university terribly.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-09-23 11:08 PM - Post#360373
In response to 10Q
Ben Platt's mom now the temporary interim Chair of the Board. She's also the current volunteer head of Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA)--I used to work for this organization's predecessor.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
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12-09-23 11:32 PM - Post#360374
In response to penn nation
I'm all for free speech on campus. I don't see anyone springing to the defense of Amy Wax here, though. Nor do I see anyone noting the chanting to "globalize the intifada," a blatant threat aimed at Jews everywhere.
But if we can use this fiasco as a teachable moment for our "no enemies to the left" liberals so that we can restore the 1980s standards of free speech on campus--no more canceling of those citing facts or expressing opinions uncongenial to the intersectional oppression commissars--then it will be well worth it.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 72
Reg: 02-09-05
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12-10-23 12:03 AM - Post#360375
In response to penn nation
I just want to make sure that I am getting this straight and understand the “context”.
In a university environment in which addressing someone by other than their preferred pronoun warrants a disciplinary hearing, and where shouting that any Jews who are unhappy about the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7 can “go back to Berlin where they came from” is just fine. Where female swimmers who feel complain about being forced to change 18 times a week in a locker room with a person who struts around showing off their erection are in need of psychological counseling, but blind allegiance to an organization whose sole expressed purpose is to murder Jews is just fine. And in an environment in which Jewish students are cautioned for their safety against wearing kipot or other outward signs of their religious faith while walking on campus, no “harassment, intimidation, or bullying” is taking place.
Yeah, that all seems to make perfect sense to me.
Scott Bok is alleged to have tried to pressure four members of Penn’s Board of Trustees to resign from the Board as a result of their having expressed concerns about Penn’s hosting of a supposed Palestinian cultural event whose invited guests on the eve of Yom Kippur included a person infamous for appearing on stage dressed as a Nazi. I have no way to prove or disprove those allegations but if true it sounds a lot like the actions of the UCLA student government when they unseated duly elected duly elected student representatives who happened to be Jewish because they anticipated that any student reps who were Jewish might vote against a BDS resolution, only worse.
No doubt Presidents McGill and Gay answered Congresswoman Stefanik’s questions the way they were instructed to by the lawyers from the Firm representing Penn and Harvard in connection with the ongoing Title VI investigation both institutions are facing. They were “just following orders” (when is the last time we heard that excuse?)
All of that said I guess we should all be happy as we have gotten what we really wanted: Penn being mentioned publicly in the same breath as Harvard, so maybe it’s not such a “very sad day” after all.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 12:03 AM - Post#360376
In response to SRP
Amy Wax has been doing this for five years.
Not once have any of these self-important hedge fund types said they'll stop donating to Penn because of the stuff she continues to do, including inviting White Nationalist guest speakers (as she did within the past month).
We didn't see also Stefanik mention anything about right wing antisemitism, nor did the "antisemitism" House Resolution which was passed on the same day with virtually no Jewish Representatives supporting the measure (it also served to equate anti-semitism with pretty much any criticism of Israel at all--again, a right wing hit piece).
Free speech means exposing ourself to different viewpoints which at times may make us uncomfortable. If this turns into physical acts, that is a different story.
But I'll fight anyone who wants to enact book bans or book burnings (as we've already started to see in some states)--these have been harbingers of calamities in the past in Jewish history. Or the curtailing of perspectives, including a Palestinian Writing Festival. Heck, the first time I read Mein Kampf was in Van Pelt Library (in Tom Childers' simply incredible RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH class).
This is all part of a very worrisome trend in education. The real cancel culture is being enforced on those who do not have hedge fund managers among their midst.
And no, I do not want to go back to the Reagan era--hard pass.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8338
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 12:57 AM - Post#360377
In response to penn nation
I have learned a few things reading this thread, including the story about the law firm that prepped Magill and Gay, confirming my suspicions about that aspect. The proper preparation would have been failing to appear at the hearing; an act that is now established as being free of material consequences.
Funny how history repeats itself. The parallels between this decade and the 1960s roll on. The last time a Penn president stepped down in the wake of student protests was Gaylord Harnwell in 1970.
My head explodes at the idea of Elise Stefanik grilling Magill accusing Penn of being institutionally anti-Semitic (still an absurd notion on its face) and holding Israel/Ukraine aid hostage on the same day.
Freedom of education and speech IS under attack. Ask anyone in the Florida about that. You can’t tell me that had no bearing on this. In the end, none of it will take Penn any closer to being a safe place to learn and speak out for Jews, Muslims, or anyone else- something that was a given in our time there.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 72
Reg: 02-09-05
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12-10-23 01:24 AM - Post#360378
In response to Streamers
Penn is not “institutionally” antisemitic. Unfortunately, however, this administration has allowed an environmental moment that is hostile to Jews. Inviting a person to speak at Penn (on the eve of Yom Kippur) who has been known to parade around on stage dressed as a Nazi creates a hostile environment. More to the point, you should compare the statements made by Liz and by the President of Drexel in response to last Sunday’s March through University City.
Now think about what Penn’s administrative response would be to a speaker who at a rally in front of Van Pelt said that any African Americans who believe that George Floyd was killed by Derek Chauvin rather than dying of a fentanyl overdose should “go back to Africa.”
How would that be different than saying that any Jews who don’t believe that Israel must be eradicated should “go back to Berlin where they came from”?
I hope you would agree that the first example should not be tolerated. The second (which actually happened) was. There is a difference between civil discourse, and acts specifically intended to create a hostile environment.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 01:24 AM - Post#360379
In response to SRP
no more canceling of those citing facts or expressing opinions uncongenial to Ron DeSantis the intersectional oppression commissars--then it will be well worth it.
Fixed it for you.
Edited by penn nation on 12-10-23 01:24 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 01:32 AM - Post#360380
In response to slane
The festival took place close to Yom Kippur, but not on it.
But that's a red herring--Rowan and Lauder did not want this Festival happening, no matter what the date was.
Look, growing up in the Chicago area a big event was when Nazis wanted to march in Skokie (where all 4 of my grandparents lived, as did many Holocaust survivors). It was ruled as legal. Many came to protest but we respected the decision of the Supreme Court.
The bottom line is once you start shutting down free speech for a selected few (and only on the basis of what a few self-important people want) it never ends well.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 01:39 AM - Post#360381
In response to slane
Again, Amy Wax has been offending students for the past five years based on racial and ethnic insults And these are students in her classes, mind you--a captive audience. So the "this would not be happening to any other group" statement is not, in fact, accurate.
And Penn did, in fact, recently ban a film that is very critical of Israel (which a student group defied and showed anyways). I thought it was outrageous that they banned it in the first place, but again to suggest that somehow Penn is "institutionally anti-Semitic" is hardly the case.
Penn is not “institutionally” antisemitic. Unfortunately, however, this administration has allowed an environmental moment that is hostile to Jews. Inviting a person to speak at Penn (on the eve of Yom Kippur) who has been known to parade around on stage dressed as a Nazi creates a hostile environment. More to the point, you should compare the statements made by Liz and by the President of Drexel in response to last Sunday’s March through University City.
Now think about what Penn’s administrative response would be to a speaker who at a rally in front of Van Pelt said that any African Americans who believe that George Floyd was killed by Derek Chauvin rather than dying of a fentanyl overdose should “go back to Africa.”
How would that be different than saying that any Jews who don’t believe that Israel must be eradicated should “go back to Berlin where they came from”?
I hope you would agree that the first example should not be tolerated. The second (which actually happened) was. There is a difference between civil discourse, and acts specifically intended to create a hostile environment.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 72
Reg: 02-09-05
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12-10-23 01:54 AM - Post#360382
In response to penn nation
This is neither a defense nor a condemnation of Amy Wax, just the facts. My understanding is that Amy Wax has been removed from teaching required courses at Penn law for several years now. This is why she no longer teaches any first year courses. The courses she currently (and for the last several years) teaches are exclusively electives. The students who choose to take courses taught by her are well aware of the controversies surrounding her. As I understand it they willingly choose to be exposed to her views. Do you have other information that there are students currently enrolled in courses she teaches who have been surprised and offended by anything she has said in class. Seems to me (and admittedly you may have better information which I would be interested in learning about) that the people complaining about what goes on in her classroom are exclusively people who have chosen NOT to take the courses she teaches. Her students do not necessarily agree with any views expressed by her or any guest lecturer she has invited, but I doubt they have been offended. Disagreed perhaps.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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12-10-23 01:57 AM - Post#360383
In response to slane
Thanks, P38 & PN, for your comments and perspectives, on this truly sad day.
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caughtinasnare
Senior
Posts: 362
Age: 35
Reg: 02-21-09
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12-10-23 02:48 AM - Post#360384
In response to slane
This entire thread makes me sad in so many ways, none of which have to do with Liz Magill resigning...The amount of intellectual intolerance that exists in our society today is mind-numbing.
I may have a vowel at the end of my name, but I'm only half Italian. My maternal grandfather was Jewish (everyone else in the family is Catholic via my grandmother). He grew up in Vienna, and my great-grandfather was tipped off that they were on a list to be rounded up and they got the heck out of there to whatever country would take them. One of his sisters, for example, wound up in England. The other wound up in Africa. My grandfather made it to America, where he joined the Army and went back over to Europe to fight. He landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day, and he got a Bronze Star for saving two wounded soldiers who were struggling to swim in the water...but that's not necessarily important to this story. It is simply meant to demonstrate that he was, in fact, there, and he saw some things that he wouldn't lie about.
My grandfather was there when the Allies liberated Dachau. He saw the horrors committed against his Jewish brethren first hand, up close. He took a handful of unimaginable pictures that I have seen, and have since inherited after his passing my senior year at Penn 14 years ago (along with his uniform, his Bronze Star, and other artifacts). Because he knew German, he was involved in translating the interrogations of the German officers who the Army captured.
I say this all because while we like to think of our system as functional, it's really quite broken. Not sure who else saw it, but check out the Economist/YouGov poll from the other day when you get a chance. When asked if they agreed or disagreed with the statement "The Holocaust was a myth", 20% of people between 18 and 29 either Strongly Agree (8%) or Tend to Agree (12%)...and 30% said Neither Agree Nor Disagree" HALF of people between 18 and 29 (technically a rounding error slightly below half, but still...) sat there and couldn't definitively say that yes, the Holocaust actually happened...When asked if the Holocaust was "exaggerated", the numbers were similar...with some of those on the fence actually slotting in with the Agree crowd to push it to 23%. And for the record, I'll let you all check out the actual data and see which party those people belong to, where they live, and who they supported in 2020.
The fact of the matter is, as I set out at the start, there is most certainly a systemic problem, not just at our university, but at all universities, and not just at all universities, but across society as a whole. Our young people are basically being taught to believe that the things that happened in the past didn't actually happen. Those numbers fell precipitously in the 30-44 age bracket, and then even more precipitously between 45 and 64. Again, if you want the data it's out there. I'd share it directly, but it opened up in a Chrome PDF Extension and I'm not sure it would work if I shared it that way. You can catch the link from here: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/481 12-i...
I have been upset with Penn for the last couple months since October 7th. I went looking to see what Penn put out as far as a public statement about a week later, curious how they worded it, only to find there hadn't been ANYTHING said that I could find. That's when I discovered the whole controversy about the Palestine Writes event that has happened earlier. In the days when every known entity seemingly has to put out a press release from their PR people after everything that has no direct involvement on their part, the silence was deafening. I was disappointed in Penn. It was practically the easiest thing in the world to say "Hey, you saw about that thing in the news that just happened halfway around the world where a bunch of innocent people were raped and murdered? Yeah, we think that was bad and they shouldn't have done that." Penn sat on their hands instead. After watching Liz Magill testify, I went from disappointed in my alma mater to embarrassed by it. The "apology" where she didn't actually apologize, and Penn muted comments on X, brought me to infuriation. I commented to a friend that "it would be nice if she said that under oath..."
I ruminated for a few days on what I wanted to say in an email that was never going to be read anyway because I'm sure they were directing them straight to trash by that point...only to not get the chance. I thought whether or not I would call for heads to roll, because it honestly won't solve the problem. I don't necessarily believe Liz Magill is anti-Semitic, but she hasn't exactly given much evidence she isn't, but again, it doesn't matter. The problem is so much more widespread than her and the two other university presidents who shared the stand with her, and it's so much bigger than just these three schools. In hindsight, I'm happy she was held accountable, but I hope and pray that her replacement can help bring Penn back to the center. In a few days it will be 18 years since I got my Early Decision acceptance...and dare I say I might not even apply to Penn if I was in those shoes today because of how toxic the culture there seems to have become. However, the unfortunate truth is I'm not sure it's better anywhere else, and as I said before, it makes me really sad in so many ways.
Instead of hurling political rhetoric around and disregarding the views of others, I suggest everyone dig deep and try to have a civil conversation with someone who disagrees with you. Hey, you might learn something, and maybe even change your mind if you're open to it. I know I've done that from time to time over the years, and I can't recommend it enough. Sometimes you're not right. Sometimes you don't have all the answers or perspectives. Sometimes you're just being a stubborn jerk who is too pigheaded to understand that you're not right and don't have all the answers or perspectives. Whatever the case may be, things will only get worse if we don't adjust our path and try to find each other in the middle instead of gravitating to our respective sides like boys and girls at a middle school dance. Let's find a path forward together.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4921
Reg: 02-04-06
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12-10-23 04:39 AM - Post#360385
In response to caughtinasnare
To be clear, my first choice would be for the level of collegiate free speech that existed in its heyday the late 1970s and 1980s. Students or faculty calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, or the United States for that matter, ought not by itself to be any cause for sanction or public comment by the administration in such a world. If the current discomfort of the woke warriors, at for once being on the wrong side of cancellation pressures, enables us to reestablish those norms in order to get them off the hook, I would consider it a worthwhile trade.
We could have no more safe spaces, no more investigating and disciplining someone for saying things that offend others, etc.
If the Ivies had been operating in such a free-speech environment for the last fifteen years, and if they had remained institutionally neutral (as the University of Chicago long ago made a principle) over issues of public controversy not bearing directly on university operations, then they would have been in a perfectly fine position to assert to Congress and the public that they weren't going to police the legal speech of their faculty and students, no matter how hateful or morally repugnant.
But that is the opposite of what they have done, as reported copiously in FIRE's databases over the years, and as every sentient person knows. They have instead engaged on heavy-handed and one-sided partisanship on behalf of the intersectional oppression ideology, as reflected in cancelations, hiring practices, DEI guidelines promulgated to students and faculty, public statements in favor of BLM and other trendy causes, etc.
Penn started down this road when it persecuted Eden Jacobowitz, and it weirdly has continued down this path despite enrolling a lot of Jews over the years. Having pro-Hamas and Jew-eliminationist sentiment sponsored (or left unremarked) by the university, in this ideological context--the "context" that Magill should have recognized in her infamous response--was never going to appear acceptable. The "free speech and issue neutrality" refuge was abandoned a long time ago. But maybe now we could amnesty the pro-Hamas embarrassments in return for their ditching the anti-free-speech practices that have deformed the universities.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4367
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 10:28 AM - Post#360386
In response to SRP
Liz MaGill and the two others followed their lawyers advice and paid the price. Clearly the performance backfired badly but the conclusions being reached by the vulgar far right that both she and Penn are anti semetic are so far off the wall.
I echo those on this board who favor free speech and question whether Jewish students at Penn legitimately feel threatened. Being Jewish myself, I’m actually somewhat embarrassed. Brave Israeli’s are risking their lives. When did Jews on the Penn campus become such pussies.
Anti semitism is real. I just question whether the actions of the Penn donors who created this mess have done anything to make things better. In fact - most of me feels this will just generate more anti semitism.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23549
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 10:33 AM - Post#360387
In response to AsiaSunset
Hopefully, this is the beginning of a process to change the culture. University culture cannot be changed like in business. A university is a mosaic of different parts and interests.
Feeling alone makes a person feel scared and vulnerable.
There are many faculty who support Israel. 344 faculty signed a letter to the university in support of Israel, but many were afraid to sign.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8338
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 10:43 AM - Post#360388
In response to caughtinasnare
This entire thread makes me sad in so many ways, none of which have to do with Liz Magill resigning...The amount of intellectual intolerance that exists in our society today is mind-numbing..
Thanks for your comments. I found them quite moving and mirror my own thoughts in the sense that this sad chapter is about issues much larger than Penn or higher education in general. I can only hope and expect the immense reputational damage to Penn will be repaired and that process can begin with a successful choice of Dr. Magill’s successor, even if that takes a long time.
Instead of hurling political rhetoric around and disregarding the views of others, I suggest everyone dig deep and try to have a civil conversation with someone who disagrees with you.
That’s why we have an off-topic board.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 10:49 AM - Post#360389
In response to Streamers
Instead of hurling political rhetoric around and disregarding the views of others, I suggest everyone dig deep and try to have a civil conversation with someone who disagrees with you.
That’s why we have an off-topic board.
Agreed. And, in addition, this is precisely why we have universities in the first place.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-10-23 11:01 AM - Post#360390
In response to Streamers
She got what she deserved.
All she had to do was agree with Stefanik's stupid, obvious question. I've covered House committee hearings; it's theatre. Dems ask hostile, leading questions of witnesses they don't like too.
Just say mea culpa. She couldn't bring herself to say it because, like so many gentiles on the left, throwing a lifeline to Jews, showing a modicum of empathy, isn't really in her mindset.
Couldn't do it when Jews asked her to intervene at the Palestinian "writers" hate fest. Couldn't do it after October 7. Couldn't do it before Congress.
But like so many on the left -- especially in academia -- she LOVES big donations from Jews.
These past two months have been very clarifying for Jews like me who are NOT MAGA idiots, who reliably vote Dem, and who thought gentiles on the left had our backs. They don't.
They're antisemites who bully useful idiots like Asiasunset into questioning if Jewish students really feel threatened. I guess those Israeli women and kids were faking their rapes, right Asia? Whatever MSNBC and the Squad says is true, Asia? They're all oppressed brown people and Israelis are all white colonialists, right Asia?
Not sure what's worse. Antisemites on the left like Magill or their apologists.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23549
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 11:07 AM - Post#360391
In response to Penn90
Well said. I couldn’t have said it better.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 11:32 AM - Post#360392
In response to Penn90
I think there is far more intimidation from Jews who view Israel as representative of all Jews (P90 and 10Q here) towards the vast majority of American Jews who feel a kinship to Israelis but see their government as foreign to the principles of Judaism and generally harmful to the interests of Diaspora Jews. No, no one can deny the awful display of butchery and hatred that occurred on 10/7. But if you don't think that crowding Palestinians into a 20 mile ghetto with over 2 million people with no prospects or having roving bands of the lineal descendants of Mayer Kahane shooting up and driving West Bank Palestinians from their homes have something to do with the hatred that resulted in 10/7, you're living in a fantasy world. The irony, of course, is that Netanyahu is responsible for the creation and funding of Hamas, because he saw a rift among Palestinian leadership would absolve him from actually attempting to resolve the endless war.
The point of my recitation above is that it is not only reasonable but a virtual requirement of academic freedom that those who wish to put forward their point of view that the Palestinians have been treated unjustly be given a forum. The suggestion that there should be prior restraints placed on the speech of those who oppose Zionism because anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism is wrong both in terms of fact and of free speech. Of all the things I thought were grossly improper in the Congressional hearing was Stefanik asking college Presidents whether Israel had a right to exist. I do, but I also feel Palestinians have a right to their ancestral homes as well and don't believe Israel's right to exist should be a measure of whether someone is anti-Semitic. Frankly, the best response I have heard to the current war was that of Obama, whose comments that the situation is complicated and both sides have blood on their hands is essentially what the Presidents were saying is a viewpoint that is entitled to be expressed. They just said it badly based on a completely false interpretation of what was happening at Penn.
I think the one thing we all agree on is that no one should ever hire the Wilmer Hale firm to prepare for a Congressional hearing
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 11:48 AM - Post#360393
In response to palestra38
I think the one thing we all agree on is that no one should ever hire the Wilmer Hale firm to prepare for a Congressional hearing
That, and that the best policy moving forward is to refuse to testify, since there has been ample proof by now, seeing what has transpired over the past 5 years, that refusing to testify even when subpoenaed by Congress has zero consequences.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2819
Reg: 11-23-04
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 12-10-23 12:26 PM - Post#360394
In response to penn nation
Ironic to read on a board normally devoted to basketball intelligent discourse about the horrible situation in Gaza and the manner in which some have reacted to and used events for their own purposes. Certainly, violence like the Hamas raids and kidnappings as well as the indiscriminate response of bombings by Netanyahu killing or displacing 1000s of innocent victims must be condemned. But, these awful events will continue until sober minds seeking solution of the underlying problems rather than retribution replace the extremists now in power on both sides. There will be no stable peace until then.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8338
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 12:29 PM - Post#360395
In response to Penn90
She got what she deserved.
But like so many on the left -- especially in academia -- she LOVES big donations from Jews.
These past two months have been very clarifying for Jews like me who are NOT MAGA idiots, who reliably vote Dem, and who thought gentiles on the left had our backs. They don't.
They're antisemites who bully useful idiots like Asiasunset into questioning if Jewish students really feel threatened. I guess those Israeli women and kids were faking their rapes, right Asia?
Not sure what's worse. Antisemites on the left like Magill or their apologists.
We really should move this to the OTB, and thanks to the non-Penn posters who chime in.
To P90: I'm not buying the righteous indignation you are selling. Not for a minute. I am confident that there are NO true anti-Semites on this board. NONE.
Liz committed several unforced errors, but she did not for a minute deserve the career destruction and national humiliation that came down on her. She signed up for an entirely different job than it turned out to be, and her biggest mistakes were listening to her bosses on the Board (plus their useless legal counsel) and acting like the Lawyer she is trained to be and excelled at. For this, she will likely be exiled to a job in her native North Dakota and go down in history as one of higher education's greatest scapegoats.
In the words of a member of the Penn administration I spoke to last week: "Amy never would have let this get out of control." This because she was an academic who morphed into a very effective leader with enough juice to dictate the response independently of the Board. Something Dr. Magill never had the opportunity to become.
As to the donations, that WAS part of her job. Ironically, the financial losses (many of which will likely be restored as getting names on buildings is irresistible to hedge-fund egomaniacs) is the least of Penn's problems. The school makes so much money as a health care conglomerate they can easily weather this.
As someone who identifies as Goyim, anyone who knows me (and several of you out there do) will tell you I can apologize for Liz and yet cringe deeply upon listening to her recently; this because I abhor the stupid of letting pond scum like Elise Stefanik (who may well be Anti-Semitic based on her actions) get the drop on her repeatedly.
P38 has it right. Having your back as an ethnicity and supporting the current Israeli government are not the same thing.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 12:37 PM - Post#360396
In response to Streamers
To compare the political fire suffered by Liz Magill to something that ACTUALLY occurred under Gutmann, I encourage that you read this article about what happened when a conference was held to divest, boycott and sanction Israel.
https://www.thefire.org/news/celebrating-penn s-pro...
Note also that the Chairman of the Trustees then was David Cohen. He too was of much greater help than Bok.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23549
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 01:11 PM - Post#360398
In response to Tiger69
Ironic to read on a board normally devoted to basketball intelligent discourse about the horrible situation in Gaza and the manner in which some have reacted to and used events for their own purposes. Certainly, violence like the Hamas raids and kidnappings as well as the indiscriminate response of bombings by Netanyahu killing or displacing 1000s of innocent victims must be condemned. But, these awful events will continue until sober minds seeking solution of the underlying problems rather than retribution replace the extremists now in power on both sides. There will be no stable peace until then.
It's not indiscriminate. They are not innocent. And there are no solutions. But other than that, you are 100% right. Nice try at equating mass rape and burning babies alive to measured self defense.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1155
Age: 53
Reg: 04-22-10
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Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 06:03 PM - Post#360448
In response to Streamers
For this, she will likely be exiled to a job in her native North Dakota and go down in history as one of higher education's greatest scapegoats.
Pretty sure I read that Magill will continue teaching at Penn Law School.
Edited by Go Green on 12-10-23 06:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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12-10-23 06:25 PM - Post#360451
In response to Tiger69
Ironic to read on a board normally devoted to basketball intelligent discourse about the horrible situation in Gaza and the manner in which some have reacted to and used events for their own purposes. Certainly, violence like the Hamas raids and kidnappings as well as the indiscriminate response of bombings by Netanyahu killing or displacing 1000s of innocent victims must be condemned. But, these awful events will continue until sober minds seeking solution of the underlying problems rather than retribution replace the extremists now in power on both sides. There will be no stable peace until then.
Well said. Unfortunately the amount of distrust and hate built up over generations makes it almost impossible to accomplish. Need true leaders on both sides which we are lacking.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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12-10-23 06:45 PM - Post#360453
In response to OldBig5
Liz Magill was simply, and predictably, guilty of giving a naive academic answer to a politically explosive question.
The change at Penn should be limited to the proper education of the Presidents as to the public position of such a visible institution. Amy Gutmann apparently had those skills.
Let's hope the next presidents has them or is better supported by his or her staff.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8338
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 08:21 PM - Post#360456
In response to Go Green
For this, she will likely be exiled to a job in her native North Dakota and go down in history as one of higher education's greatest scapegoats.
Pretty sure I read that Magill will continue teaching at Penn Law School.
The over/under on that arrangement is about 6 months at most.
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caughtinasnare
Senior
Posts: 362
Age: 35
Reg: 02-21-09
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12-10-23 11:07 PM - Post#360460
In response to penn nation
The problem is that it no longer happens at universities. Unfortunately, it started with my generation, I think. I know, Millennials often get blamed for the degradation of society, but yeah, our generation did that. Civil conversations have disappeared, and shouting everyone else down has replaced it. That's the clear and obvious problem that I'm trying to point out. Protests are no longer peaceful. Just reminds me of the time Chris Cuomo asked about the George Floyd protests "Show me where it says protestors are supposed to be polite and peaceful?" Well, I'd suggest a re-read on the First Amendment, but I'm not a lawyer like Chris Cuomo is...
Basically, the crux of my point is "Everyone is pretty terrible and should start respecting the rights and opinions of others...but I'm certainly not holding my breath until it happens."
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 11:17 PM - Post#360462
In response to caughtinasnare
I just started a Magill OT thread on the OT board.
Let's take it there.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
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12-11-23 12:02 PM - Post#360486
In response to penn nation
How does one access that board?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-11-23 12:14 PM - Post#360490
In response to SteveChop
If you are signed in, just go to the off topic board like this one and click onto the conversation in which you want to participate--there is no difference.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-11-23 12:15 PM - Post#360491
In response to palestra38
Tell ‘em that P38 sent you.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1155
Age: 53
Reg: 04-22-10
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12-11-23 01:55 PM - Post#360497
In response to palestra38
If you are signed in, just go to the off topic board like this one and click onto the conversation in which you want to participate--there is no difference.
I think he was asking where the off topic Board is.
If I'm correct, go up to the top where it says "Location" and click on "Forum Index." The Off-Topic Board is underneath both the Ivy and the Patriot Boards in the "Basketball U" file.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1904
Reg: 11-29-04
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12-11-23 03:36 PM - Post#360501
In response to Go Green
Are you going to give out the secret password?
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-11-23 04:55 PM - Post#360507
In response to Penndemonium
Are you going to give out the secret password?
Scotty wotty do do.
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