penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-03-24 08:47 PM - Post#362687
About the best thing you can say so far is that at least Penn is not getting blown out--so far. It sure looked like they would be after the first 3-4 minutes of this one.
Good looks have been extremely tough to come by.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
|
Re: Yale
02-03-24 09:06 PM - Post#362694
In response to penn nation
Well, they start the second half the way they started the first half and now it is indeed a blowout.
This team could very well finish in last place this year.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Yale
02-03-24 09:08 PM - Post#362695
In response to penn nation
Thankfully, Dartmouth is even worse. But this Penn team has the triple trouble of not enough talent, not enough experience, and the coach doesn't know what to do with them. He had his chance last year and he thought he would have one more. It was not to be.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-03-24 09:49 PM - Post#362705
In response to palestra38
Honestly, I can't wait until baseball at Wrigley. None of my other sports teams that I root for are/will be any good until then.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-03-24 09:59 PM - Post#362708
In response to penn nation
With baseball, there is always hope, especially with the current wild card rules that allow crappy teams like Arizona to get to the World Series. There's currently no hope for Penn.
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
02-03-24 10:23 PM - Post#362715
In response to palestra38
20 points for Brown. Penn gave up 69% shooting on twos with 32 points in the paint.
Sure Clark's absence hurts on offense. But it doesn't explain the poor defense.
As to Dingle departure. Yale, Princeton, Cornell, and Harvard all lost their best player last year. So every team has to deal with such things. So do it well, some don't.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-03-24 10:28 PM - Post#362716
In response to UPIA1968
Penn also lost Monroe and MLL on defense and then Martz was also lost.
|
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-03-24 11:02 PM - Post#362722
In response to palestra38
I saw it was relatively close at half and I had a few minutes so I turned it on, the lead for Yale instantly ballooned and I turned it back off after 5 or 10 mins. It was the right choice.
1-5…. with Princeton away (haven’t beaten them in a depressingly long time and hard to see it now even with Clark) before Yale at home. So is 1-5 embarrassing enough? If not, is 1-7 embarrassing enough for at least some consideration for a change?
|
Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
|
02-03-24 11:22 PM - Post#362726
In response to Mike Porter
Maybe this is the best thing that can happen. When do we start the thread with real alternatives? Not Bruce Pearl and Ben Howland like who used to be in our dreams. Mccaffrey is long gone. Guess it has to be one of the alum? I imagine either of them would come?
|
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Yale
02-04-24 12:02 AM - Post#362728
In response to Quakers03
I don’t know what’s worse, the 1-5 record or the fact that I just searched Twitter and there aren’t even any Penn fans left to complain about the level of mediocrity we are mired in at this point. I don’t see a single tweet from Penn perspective from a fan about the game.
If a college basketball program dies on the vine in the forest, but there are no fans to see it, does it really die?
Any defenders left here really think there is a way this program turns around under the current coaching staff?
|
besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
|
Yale
02-04-24 09:25 AM - Post#362732
In response to Mike Porter
I don’t understand why we’d be so rash in moving on. Steve’s barely gotten 9 seasons to put together one in-conference double-digit win season and one tournament appearance. Maybe in another decade we’d have an outside shot at another one!
Edited by besnoah on 02-04-24 09:26 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
|
02-04-24 11:18 AM - Post#362738
In response to besnoah
Can i ask an honest question and i'm not trying to instigate nor am i using whatever behind the scenes information i might have... what do coaches supporters use to defend him? His track record( short of the inarguably impressive tourny run which circumstances are well documented) isn't good. His recruiting isn't good. His in game adjustments surpass the not good so in all honesty am i missing something here?
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8260
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-04-24 11:38 AM - Post#362743
In response to nychoops
I do not see anyone making any blanket defense of SD. Some feel certain specific criticisms are not borne out by the facts, but that is the extent of it. Others, like myself, feel the entire debate means little because there is no indication that the Penn administration would force him out short of a major scandal or an Allen-style meltdown. I do not know when his contract is up, but it will be interesting to see what happens when it is. My guess is that he will be extended unless he decides to leave on his own.
|
CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
|
02-04-24 11:45 AM - Post#362744
In response to nychoops
Lots of folks on this board discounted Martz opting not to return. They did so at their peril. When your best returning player decides he'd rather not play at all than play for you it's indicative of deep issues.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-04-24 12:06 PM - Post#362749
In response to CM
I know I asked where do people think he will resurface next year as a grad transfer.
|
pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-04-24 12:50 PM - Post#362755
In response to palestra38
I am not a defender of Steve D., but without more facts, it is reasonable that there are many reasons, including residual injury, why a fifth year senior who saw no path to a championship might opt to sit out this year rather than hang out with underclassmen. That said, I am among the few of us who still watches every minute of every game on ESPN+ because of my 60 plus years of caring very deeply about Penn and its basketball team. Just as I was disappointed and hurt by Liz McGill’s obvious lack of sophistication in the ways she failed to manage campus upheaval and the hostility of the Washington committee hearing, I see SD lacking the ability to adjust to the way that recruiting and coaching have evolved. I believe he cares very much, and see signs that his players care very much about their team and the university, so he deserves credit for that. He seems to be a good man, one deserving of his players’ loyalty, but a coach whose defensive schemes look the same as they would have 40 years ago, and whose recruiting falls far short of the upgrades in recruiting by his Ivy peer group. Even if magically Clark returns and makes a big difference and he were to influence Martz to join him to finish out the season, we still would be a third place quality team at best. More realistically, we will finish fifth or sixth, and, sadly, it will continue this way until Steve or the university do what is needed to up their game.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
|
Yale
02-04-24 06:06 PM - Post#362769
In response to pennsive
I agree that no one is blanket defending him. My main defense is that I just don't care enough anymore - about college sports, not just Penn basketball - to bang the table for his ouster. I also find it hard to pour loyalty into a program where the university President and AD don't seem to care any more deeply than I do. I agree that SD's record has been proven mediocre, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about admissions, financial aid, NIL, and resources to assign blame. The buck stops with the coach, though. It's the coach's job to manage upwards too.
SD undoubtedly did a fantastic coaching job with Cornell. He took that team as far as any other Ivy team (even the best P-P teams of the modern era) into the NCAAs. If you watched those games, his team was better coached than its opponents. Accomplishing that at Cornell is against all odds. He is not flat out a bad coach. That said, he has not shown the ability to recreate that magic at BC or Penn. His teams have not been good on defense. I think his offensive scheme is decent. It is just well scouted and understood within the league. It helps us to pick up a few out-of-conference wins (i.e. Villanova), but it isn't giving us Ivy titles. His recruiting has been middling, and the fit with his scheme is also middling. He hasn't put all of this pieces together in running a program, period. The kids seem fantastic and are playing hard for each other, so I am happy enough to watch games and pull for them whether we win or lose. This is closer to rooting for your kids' high school than it is to the SEC. We're adults, and we really should have more to get riled up about than Penn basketball, blaming kids, and calling for coaches to be fired.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
|
Yale
02-04-24 07:36 PM - Post#362774
In response to Penndemonium
BTW, my apathy towards college sports comes from a variety of sources. Bad NCAA policy, conference realignment, cheating among programs, recruiting student athletes ahead of other gifted students, etc. But things are headed in a worse direction, IMO. As the power 5 turn into the Power 2 or 3, TV dollars are going to be more concentrated. Recruiting will vastly favor a handful of schools who provide substantial NIL. As tickets to high end games become scarce, undoubtedly pricing will go up. Schools won't settle for just the TV money. As player costs go up, so will ticket prices - even student tickets. Families won't be able to afford to go to great college games. This is professional sports, and frankly doesn't need to be affiliated with Universities anymore. These athletes will care very little about their university and the student body - they will rebid themselves in the transfer portal every year. My point is that I'll happily choose to watch local HS sports and mediocre Ivy sport so that I don't fund the beast of high-end college athletics. In the same way I don't berate HS players for underperforming, I'm not going to get too emotionally attached in criticizing true amateur athletes playing for the joy of sports and programs that enable that. There are better things to do. I'd rather be supportive - even though I still may pick at a few things like team free throw shooting and rebounding.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
|
02-04-24 08:38 PM - Post#362780
In response to nychoops
I may be the closest thing he has to a defender on here. I’d say he is a good man who has gotten the program back to a level where it is a clean, respectable, well-run program. That’s an achievement given the prior two coaches, who basically took a historically good program and quickly drove it into the ground both in terms of results and ethics.
We are far enough along into his tenure that I think it is fair to say that achievement, important as it is, may be as far as Steve can take us.
While your question is a fair one, I am not sure how relevant it is to the reality of Ivy basketball. It’s hard to get fired. Every current men’s coach has been in place for basically as long as Steve, and I believe 5 of them have worse records than Steve. You don’t get fired in this league unless you basically stop winning games entirely, or you commit a violation of some kind (or both).
|
Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
|
02-04-24 10:36 PM - Post#362786
In response to SomeGuy
Is it really a well-run program?
|
