SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts: 102
Age: 39
Reg: 02-25-12
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02-15-24 11:19 AM - Post#363220
In response to Mike Porter
I'm going to cautiously dip my toe in here.
I've wondered a fair bit about whether some of the structural advantages that Penn had over the years have gone away for hoops. I'd imagine other folks know more, but when I was recruited to Penn, my understanding was Penn was both more flexible than most peer institutions with Academic Index and was able to "win" most head-to-head financial aid battles. I really had trouble affording to give up a scholarship and Penn really put together a fantastic package for me at the time.
My recollection is that the Amaker signing was conditional on them changing their AI approach and there hasn't been as clear an advantage there.
And in my talks with coaches (particularly on the Women's side -- where I think McLaughlin's trajectory shows some of the challenges competing at Penn) I know they have a really hard time competing straight-up with financial aid packages at schools with stronger endowments and policies around grants up to a certain family $ income.
I'm not close enough to the SD staff to have much of an inside scoop there. But I tend to be of the opinion that addressing the financial aid stuff to even the playing field (and obviously now it's weirder with NIL $s) is a big piece of the current recruiting approach.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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02-15-24 12:09 PM - Post#363221
In response to SteveDanley
The basketball recruiting world is tiny and once word gets around that a certain program does not have a good culture and that kids who go there do not have good experiences it gets exponentially harder to land coveted recruits. As the saying goes, Culture eats Strategy for breakfast.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32833
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-24 12:28 PM - Post#363222
In response to SteveDanley
I don't know that any Ivy schools dip into endowment to help pay for basketball expenses, other than to have a major donor endow the coach position and facilities. Penn does that. Not to the extent that Harvard went to pay Amaker and his wife and give them a house.
But whether it is the culture or the recruiting ability of the staff, the fact remains that the team is not where we want it to be.
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SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts: 102
Age: 39
Reg: 02-25-12
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02-15-24 12:49 PM - Post#363224
In response to palestra38
I'm not saying they dip into endowments, but that the universities with larger endowments have ended up with more generous financial aid policies for the entire student body, which has changed the landscape for recruiting athletes.
Penn used to have a failsafe for this -- they could "match" official offers at other places for athletes. My understanding is that other schools have caught on and provide unofficial financial aid estimates rather than official offers to keep Penn from being able to match.
Again, I'm not up on the day-to-day of this. But I think this financial aid stuff has ended up being a big deal in recruitment.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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02-15-24 07:17 PM - Post#363240
In response to SteveDanley
Not to diminish anything that Fran Dunphy accomplished during his 17 years as Penn’s coach, it is worth noting that despite sharing absolute domination of the Ivy League with Princeton during his tenure, Fran’s Penn teams won only 1 NCAA tournament game and only 1 outright Big 5 title (2001-02). Fran’s Penn teams won 3 other Big 5 titles, including a shared 2-0 title in 1993-94, and 5 team 1-1 ties in 91-92and 97-98 (during the first non-full round robin era). Fran beat Villanova 4 times (91-92, 93-94, 97-98, and 2001-02).
SD has beaten Villanova twice (2018-19) and (2023-24) and has won 1 outright Big 5 title (2018-19). He has yet to win an NCAA tournament game.
The reality is that Penn no longer dominates the Ivy’s because the rest of the league has gotten much better. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have benefitted from the Ivyies being prevented to share the terms of their respective financial aid packages. It has been alleged that Harvard, Yale and Princeton have offered more generous packages. Penn in turn benefitted from an advantage over Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell in that while its packages were less generous that those offered by the “big 3’s”, Penn implemented its no-loan/grant only policy before Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Columbia did. (I am uncertain as to whether each of those 4 have no loan policies in place even now.)
As for recruiting deficiencies, I am hard pressed to see where the team Penn expected to have this year - which would also have included Dingle and Martz - would have been iany less talented than that of any of Penn’s rivals. in fact Penn expected to field the most talented roster in the league.
Finally, as for coaching, the only Ivy coach who has distinguished himself above all others is in my view Brian Earl at Cornell given what he has accomplished with the talent he has assembled. And I again remind everyone that the Tiger nation was screaming for Henderson’s head after Princeton’s meltdown at home against Yale last year.
Everyone in this space needs to chill and let the second half of the Ivy round Robin play out.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-24 07:18 PM - Post#363241
In response to SteveDanley
Hi Steve - hope you've been well and always great to have your insights.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the financial dynamics have changed and one-time advantages may no longer be there. Certainly all of college basketball has changed and is continuing to change pretty rapidly.
But the only way to survive is to adapt, and that's true in any evolving situation or evolving market. The results currently are not only not at a level that fans hope for, but is actually trending downward as well.
The fan expectation isn't of the olden days of just Penn and Princeton champs, those days are long gone. But consistently 4th isn't going to cut it either. To put it in context for where we are... you were a senior on the last top 100 team Penn had, 17 years ago.
Now only 9 years of that is the responsibility of the current staff, but 9 years is a long time too.
It's good to understand what any coach might be up against and know it will be a challenge, but equally I see no indictions that the current staff can overcome said challenges if they exist. So for me, I come to the same conclusion.
Time for a change (note, that doesn't mean I think it will actually happen).
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-15-24 07:30 PM - Post#363244
In response to slane
Not to diminish anything that Fran Dunphy accomplished during his 17 years as Penn’s coach, it is worth noting that despite sharing absolute domination of the Ivy League with Princeton during his tenure, Fran’s Penn teams won only 1 NCAA tournament game and only 1 outright Big 5 title (2001-02). Fran’s Penn teams won 3 other Big 5 titles, including a shared 2-0 title in 1993-94, and 5 team 1-1 ties in 91-92and 97-98 (during the first non-full round robin era). Fran beat Villanova 4 times (91-92, 93-94, 97-98, and 2001-02).
SD has beaten Villanova twice (2018-19) and (2023-24) and has won 1 outright Big 5 title (2018-19). He has yet to win an NCAA tournament game.
The reality is that Penn no longer dominates the Ivy’s because the rest of the league has gotten much better. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have benefitted from the Ivyies being prevented to share the terms of their respective financial aid packages. It has been alleged that Harvard, Yale and Princeton have offered more generous packages. Penn in turn benefitted from an advantage over Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell in that while its packages were less generous that those offered by the “big 3’s”, Penn implemented its no-loan/grant only policy before Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Columbia did. (I am uncertain as to whether each of those 4 have no loan policies in place even now.)
As for recruiting deficiencies, I am hard pressed to see where the team Penn expected to have this year - which would also have included Dingle and Martz - would have been iany less talented than that of any of Penn’s rivals. in fact Penn expected to field the most talented roster in the league.
Finally, as for coaching, the only Ivy coach who has distinguished himself above all others is in my view Brian Earl at Cornell given what he has accomplished with the talent he has assembled. And I again remind everyone that the Tiger nation was screaming for Henderson’s head after Princeton’s meltdown at home against Yale last year.
Everyone in this space needs to chill and let the second half of the Ivy round Robin play out.
Jordan Dingle and Max Martz were not meant to be seniors this year. Only because of COVID would they have been there if they so chose (and in fact they chose to not be here), them staying an extra year would have only helped mitigate the poor recruiting across several classes after them.
If they were here you'd see a lot less of Perkins and Brown (Dingle would have played every guard minute he could alongside Clark). I don't agree it would have been the most talented team. Would have been a lot better placed for sure, and in the conversation, but no clear winner for talent.
Genuine question. Let's say we win 6 out of next 7, get to 6-8 and sneak into a distant 4th place to make Ivy Madness. What does that tell you about the staff that makes it any more clear they can make a big jump as a program after 9 years of what we've already seen?
For me, personally would I feel a little bit better about it? Sure. Would it change the trajectory of the program currently as I see it? No, it would just be more of the same.
This is really the only stat you need to know. # of Top 100 Penn teams in the last 9 years = 0. No number of wins the rest of the season will change that.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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02-15-24 09:59 PM - Post#363247
In response to slane
Yes the league has gotten better and year after year championships are no longer possible. But, the team rankings against the entire country are worse, much worse. Maybe a sub 100 ranking might not win the league, as Fran usually did. But it is much better than the rankings this program gets now.
Further the Ivy champs of this era have similar rankings to the Penn/Princeton rankings before Fran left.
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