Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4484
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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Re: Its the small things
03-04-24 11:47 AM - Post#364473
In response to SomeGuy
A quote usually attributed to Albert Einstein:
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32833
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Its the small things
03-04-24 11:53 AM - Post#364474
In response to Cvonvorys
That he said it has been debunked. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/definition-insa nity...
But it's pretty universally correct.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Its the small things
03-05-24 02:45 AM - Post#364526
In response to SomeGuy
My reasoning probably isn’t all that compelling. First up, I don’t think there’s any chance he’ll be fired this off-season, so I don’t put too much thought or energy into whether he should be. Second, kind of like with the players, I’m a Penn fan through and through. I don’t look at it and say I want some other players or coaches who would be more competitive. I want to win with these players, and these coaches. I know most fans don’t relate that way, and I’m not saying that somehow makes me a bigger or better fan (maybe just a dumber fan). I know (almost) everyone here wants them to succeed.
I do think (as you acknowledge) that bringing the program back from where it was mattered a lot and was hard — I think Steve should get lots of credit for that. I do think backsliding is a very real possibility with a new coach, given we had 2 straight bad ones before Steve. Those aren’t reasons to live with mediocrity, necessarily, but they matter. I also think that we get a little too binary in our thinking when we say “the team will never succeed with Steve,” etc. I’m sure there are other coaches out there who would increase our odds, but it could happen with Steve too, as it did at Cornell.
I appreciate the response. I do acknowledge and thank Coach Donahue for bringing Penn back to a clean and respectable program, and have always said he seems like a good guy. However, results, like in most jobs, are important. I also (very sadly) doubt that a change is made, but for me it is all that's about left to discuss before I lose interest entirely. I like the frosh class, but again the lack of depth in other classes (with many swings and misses in recruiting) means that after losing Clark this year, next year continues to look rough (unless next years frosh above and beyond surprise).
I agree though that "it could happen to us" isn't a particularly compelling reason for me to stay the course. We're talking about an Ivy League school built on the premise of striving to achieve (mediocrity really shouldn't be on the agenda, no?).
Here is some food for thought: https://kenpom.com/history.php?c=Steve+Donahue
Coach Doahue, in 23 years as a head coach, has 2 Top 100 finishes. His Sweet 16 Cornell team in 2010, and his first BC team in 2011 that was recruited by his predecessor. We know the story of how that Cornell team came together (Dale and Foote basically recruited Cornell, not the other way around). His other top 100 team had none of his own recruits.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-05-24 04:13 AM - Post#364527
In response to Mike Porter
I think Levine and Foster make for a pretty interesting impact class. Together with Perkins and Brown, I think we finally are assembling some pieces. That said, we probably could use some muscle and a shooter to put together a good core. If that group can stay healthy together, we'll be back to competing. Whether that group is good enough is hard to say.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-24 09:18 PM - Post#364607
In response to Penndemonium
The incoming recruit I really like is Alex Massung. He kind of reminds me of a young Ibby Jabbar. He should only be that good in time.
Young Levine reminds me a bit of Ed Persia.
How any of these 4 recruits’ games translate to the college game is anybody’s guess.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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03-07-24 03:21 PM - Post#364714
In response to AsiaSunset
Who's Ed Persia? Did he change his name to Iran?
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 434
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-07-24 04:07 PM - Post#364717
In response to SteveChop
Persia was a good, not great, guard at Princeton
in the early 2000s. Played awhile in Europe,and
went into coaching... More of a scorer than a point
guard.
No idea if Levine is a similar player.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-07-24 04:59 PM - Post#364719
In response to LocalTiger
Levine sees the floor very well and sets his teammates up. He's not a pure shooter but he can score in a variety of ways.
But I'd say his greatest assets are his two way play and a non-stop motor.
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mmp629
Junior
Posts: 259
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-07-24 05:02 PM - Post#364720
In response to LocalTiger
He had that full court heave that won a game at Monmouth!
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-07-24 06:38 PM - Post#364732
In response to mmp629
I liked Levine's motor and he clearly knew how to play. If he can develop a pure 22-23 footer from a variety of curls and stepbacks, he could be a lot to handle. It would open up lanes for him and give him so many more passing options.
I couldn't tell what to make of Massung from his video, even though I have self-appointed myself as the video scout.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-24 09:50 AM - Post#364785
In response to Penndemonium
Massung shares certain characteristics with Ibby as a high school senior. He’s long, has a very good 1st step, gets into the lane and has a quick stop and pop mid range game. Like Ibby his handle right now is decent but not great and he’s not a proven deadeye from range.
Having said all that, Penn recruits at a mid major level and even takes a number of underreruited guys who show year to year improvement. You never really know if or when the kids take the next step forward. I’m guessing this player will get that chance.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 12:11 PM - Post#364787
In response to AsiaSunset
I guess we can just give up on getting team-changing transfers ever again? I know I’ve beating this drum for years and I know a Maloney or Bowman are out of the question but does the NIL mean we’ll never get Toole or Oz again either?
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-09-24 07:04 PM - Post#364832
In response to Quakers03
While it is true that Penn has less an intrinsic advantage then it did years ago, the historical stats still prove conclusively that it is all about coaching. Who recruited Bowman and Maloney, and Toole, etc. That guy from Laslle.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 07:56 PM - Post#364847
In response to UPIA1968
You know my thoughts…But they have a strong class next year. 4 more years!!!
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-09-24 10:21 PM - Post#364905
In response to Quakers03
The class had better be good because the other Ivies have plenty coming in having elicited more interest from other schools.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 10:49 PM - Post#364909
In response to UPIA1968
Still think Eddie can’t create his own shot?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-10-24 01:06 AM - Post#364925
In response to Quakers03
He can when he’s 6 inches taller than the defender.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-10-24 04:53 AM - Post#364926
In response to AsiaSunset
I get what you are saying - but the thing about Ibby is that he was very fast and agile and had a quick twitch mind. He was became freakishly strong for such a wiry player. I don't see that in Massung's footage. He looks more like a small forward in his foot speed, footwork, and reaction time. I acknowledge that this is based on small amounts of video. He looks like he would be a good small forward if he is strong and athletic enough for it. At 6-3, I think he's going to need better feet. I don't see him displacing Perkins for minutes.
That said, if he is a great shooter who knows how to get his, then we can always use a player.
Massung shares certain characteristics with Ibby as a high school senior. He’s long, has a very good 1st step, gets into the lane and has a quick stop and pop mid range game. Like Ibby his handle right now is decent but not great and he’s not a proven deadeye from range.
Having said all that, Penn recruits at a mid major level and even takes a number of underreruited guys who show year to year improvement. You never really know if or when the kids take the next step forward. I’m guessing this player will get that chance.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-10-24 10:57 AM - Post#364945
In response to PennFan10
He can when he’s 6 inches taller than the defender.
Well now it makes sense that he hasn’t played in 3 weeks! Since he’s only capable of playing in matchups where he might have a height advantage. Also makes sense that his first appearance was the second half given he would’ve had that same height advantage in the first half…Now imagine if your insinuation is correct. You don’t think it’s a good idea to get someone with a unique skill set like that more minutes to see if he can develop a game vs bigger players? Or actually do some things to force mismatches? Instead we get more of the same. Guys who can’t shoot or play d. I know I must be missing something here. Must be.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-10-24 12:49 PM - Post#364960
In response to Quakers03
Right or wrong, it seems like Eddie is viewed kind of like an offense minded backup catcher. You out him in there when you are behind in hopes of catching some offense. The problem last night is that we were behind because we couldn’t get stops on a historic level. So it didn’t matter whether Eddie could score. We scored the ball fine — about as well as we have all year. We just couldn’t defend anybody. We needed somebody who could help with that.
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