Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-22-24 01:57 PM - Post#366075
It's obvious things aren't right with our program at this moment. It's unclear what the impact to the Ivy League will be as classes roll over. Mid-majors will *probably* be at a disadvantage to big conference teams in the longer run.
Things are changing in NCAA basketball. Even Coach Calipari, who ruled the NCAAs for years, needs to rethink his approach. I despise Calipari, but can't deny that he is among coaching royalty.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/another-early-ex it-kent...
So... let's start a thread. What should Penn do about this? How should it shape a strategy to be competitive within the league? How should it find a way for the team and the league to be relevant? Or should Penn just let it wither?
So my ground rules are...
- This thread is not about whether Donahue should be fired. I'm fine that many people think that he should be, but the longer term issues of NIL and the transfer portal are bigger than him - just as it may be bigger than Calipari. Let's make this a strategy that considers what we would want to have happen, irrespective of who the individual leading the team is. Let's have separate threads about the coach.
- Let's ground this in realism. Pie in the sky won't help chart solutions. It would be easy to say start recruiting better, developing players better, and pouring money at this. Obviously we want a coach who can do that. But how do we deal with the systemic issues?
- At least on first thought, the main issues for this thread are how to overcome issues with the NIL, transfer portal, concentration of major conferences, financials of sports programs, and apathy of the Ivy League.
Maybe we can come up with something useful instead of just heaping criticism. Or maybe we come to the conclusion that there is no way to win here.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 02:07 PM - Post#366077
In response to Penndemonium
Here's a thought. What if Penn and the league agreed to allow a full ride scholarship for all players, but no NIL beyond that? It would help provide equal access to high quality education and give a lot of people access up front - instead of waiting for financial aid feedback. It would also help equalize the HYP tuition policies. I know many people think the financial aid disparities aren't a big deal, but I can't help think that it matters at least a bit. Every player qualified to be recruited to the team will know they have financial access, but no upside. The value, given tuition today, is still quite large. We might have easier access to a broader pool of players, get better recruits, and give more of them a reason to stay.
I don't think this will solve all of the problems, but it *should* raise the quality of the team, it helps thread the needle of recruiting and retaining good players, and still attracts players who care about their education. Also, it doesn't break the bank at all.
I don't think this brings the programs to an elite level, but it gives the league the possibility of staying solidly within the mid-level ranks. It may even boost it to upper-mid-major level. For Penn specifically, it also helps to remove the HYPr financial aid advantage, however big or small that actually is. A program at the upper-mid-major level should be self supporting from better fan bases, ticket sales, merch sales, and better NCAA money (from occasional at-large NCAA invitations).
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 02:11 PM - Post#366078
In response to Penndemonium
Or here's a revised thought. Instead of no NIL, maybe it is NIL that is split evenly among roster players. This way it isn't mercenary but allows athletes to benefit from NIL. NIL helps the team instead of just players individually. That may not attract the biggest stars, but could attract some pretty good ones - maybe enough to raise the program and attract more NIL for the team. This approach could allow the program and league to stay afloat with the rest of the NCAAs, even if NIL itself goes crazy. It won't attract many five star recruits, but it will make sure the league doesn't perennially get the bottom of the recruiting barrel.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 08:22 PM - Post#366170
In response to Penndemonium
Or here's a revised thought. Instead of no NIL, maybe it is NIL that is split evenly among roster players. This way it isn't mercenary but allows athletes to benefit from NIL. NIL helps the team instead of just players individually. That may not attract the biggest stars, but could attract some pretty good ones - maybe enough to raise the program and attract more NIL for the team. This approach could allow the program and league to stay afloat with the rest of the NCAAs, even if NIL itself goes crazy. It won't attract many five star recruits, but it will make sure the league doesn't perennially get the bottom of the recruiting barrel.
I like this better than the idea of a full ride. The only way to make that one work would be to have it cover tuition, room & board plus a stipend of sufficient size that the student athletes wouldn't need to work a campus job.
And of course, with Title IX this would have to be available to the women's team as well.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-22-24 10:15 PM - Post#366182
In response to weinhauers_ghost
The combination of anti-trust action and the Union thing at Dartmouth may well eliminate all restrictions of Ivy league money.
In the end the only thing that matters is the academic standards.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-22-24 10:58 PM - Post#366185
In response to UPIA1968
Jay Wright and coach K saw all this coming and pulled the ripcord. Wonder who will be the next legendary coach to join them; or the first successful Ivy coach to jump to an NIL school?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 02:58 AM - Post#366192
In response to Streamers
I've heard Henderson mentioned around the Stanford position.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 07:04 AM - Post#366195
In response to Penndemonium
I've heard Henderson mentioned around the Stanford position.
Stanford's impending move to the ACC will make that a much more difficult job, as will the recent firing of coach Jerod Haase. Three players have already entered the portal: the 7'1" center, Maxime Reynaud, and two members of this season's freshman class, guard Kanaan Carlyle (who had a very good season) and swingman Andrej Stojakovic (son of NBA legend Peja Stojakovic), whose season was pretty inconsistent. They also lose multiple rotation players to graduation: forwards Spencer Jones and Brandon Angel, and Michael Jones, a guard who was the first grad transfer ever accepted by Stanford.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 03-23-24 07:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 587
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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03-23-24 07:24 AM - Post#366196
In response to Streamers
Jay Wright and coach K saw all this coming and pulled the ripcord. Wonder who will be the next legendary coach to join them; or the first successful Ivy coach to jump to an NIL school?
Jay was so smart to get out when he did. This is a mess.
Congrats to Coach Jones!
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-23-24 08:27 AM - Post#366200
In response to Charlie Fog
Like putting Tim Robinson hot dog guy in charge of the investigation
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-23-24 10:25 AM - Post#366205
In response to Jeff2sf
This is a good, smart productive interesting thread. My posts of blaming without any alternative plans might not have been my finest moment. While i stand by everything i said..this is a good idea.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 10:42 AM - Post#366208
In response to weinhauers_ghost
I still think Stanford in the ACC is an absurdity. Why should their volleyball team travel to Ga tech for a league game.
Maybe down the road we will get down to 2 pro college leagues that can do regional divisions and unbalanced schedules.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 10:49 AM - Post#366211
In response to Streamers
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 11:04 AM - Post#366213
In response to palestra38
Maybe Cornell will hire Donahue away.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-23-24 11:09 AM - Post#366214
In response to SomeGuy
The “college”i is coming out of college basketball.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 11:59 AM - Post#366220
In response to palestra38
The Ivies are officially in turmoil.
This board is like Jerry’s bizarro world. The morning after Yale drops Auburn just a year after Princeton goes to the Sweet Sixteen and the world is ending because the (very good) coach of the third place team takes another job and a (very good) player from the league’s fourth place team transfers out.
I could be wrong but I just don’t see it.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 01:10 PM - Post#366235
In response to palestra38
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
Don't say I didn't warn you, but William & Mary was a big surprise; not exactly a major upgrade.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 02:09 PM - Post#366239
In response to Streamers
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
Don't say I didn't warn you, but William & Mary was a big surprise; not exactly a major upgrade.
Seriously. I figured that if Earl was to leave Cornell, it would have been for a higher profile mid major job. This looks like a lateral move, and it surprised me.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 02:17 PM - Post#366240
In response to TigerFan
You are not wrong, but this is the Penn basketball board, and Penn clearly needs a plan. Further, the real impact of NIL, the transfer portal, and conference realignment hasn't been felt yet. So far, the transfer portal has created chaos. It means that teams are churning rosters. In the future, the changes may actually lock in players to certain programs that provide the best packages. That's when the league will start to feel it.
You are not wrong that right now, chaos favors the Ivy League. I don't think many of us feel that long term equilibrium will. The current equilibrium doesn't favor Penn, that's for sure.
The Ivies are officially in turmoil.
This board is like Jerry’s bizarro world. The morning after Yale drops Auburn just a year after Princeton goes to the Sweet Sixteen and the world is ending because the (very good) coach of the third place team takes another job and a (very good) player from the league’s fourth place team transfers out.
I could be wrong but I just don’t see it.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 02:22 PM - Post#366242
In response to nychoops
NYCHoops, any suggestions on how we keep players like Dingle around a program like Penn? Obviously coaching, but we'll ignore that for this thread...
Would some form of a financial guarantee help? It may not have been a key factor in his case, but even turning a slight negative into a slight positive factor could help? Do players need more NIL support? Is the education differentiated enough to make a difference?
This is a good, smart productive interesting thread. My posts of blaming without any alternative plans might not have been my finest moment. While i stand by everything i said..this is a good idea.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 10:28 PM - Post#366287
In response to Penndemonium
I know that for some Penn sports, there is an alumni board that Meets and constructs plans for how to build the stature of the sport. They raise money for facilities improvements and seem to have some influence with the Athletic Department over the coaching hires. I don't know formally the roles. The individual sports programs get nothing but apathy and neglect from the athletic department. They defer to the coaches for everything, but coaches typically aren't great all-around at every aspect of running a program. The alumni boards help bring advisors to the sport, working together to set direction and priorities. Without leadership, our athletic programs are a rudderless ship. Basketball feels like that now. Does basketball have any leadership from well informed alumni that are positioned to help? Penn's men's squash team has such a board, for example. They just turned around the team into a national champion.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 09:12 AM - Post#366380
In response to Penndemonium
A question for the board is whether or not it’s possible to operate a NIL collective without the endorsement and cooperation of the underlying university. I ask this only because I had heard the Ivy League sent out a strong off the record message to the universities not to.
If we circle back to the original question and think about formulating a plan, if I were the AD, I’d certainly want to do a sit down with the graduating seniors as well as an exit interview with Tyler Perkins. This may be happening or it may not be happening, but it seems like the logical starting point.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-25-24 09:26 AM - Post#366382
In response to AsiaSunset
If AD did exit interviews with players they'd have to hire all new coaching staffs for both programs.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-25-24 01:02 PM - Post#366413
In response to CM
I don't know much about the NIL process, but it sounds like players are free to sign their own NIL deals outside of the universities. That said, the non-ivy universities are raising funds explicitly for player pay of one form or another from alumni.
I'd imagine alumni are free to raise their own NIL collective, but most would want to do it in parallel and cooperation with the team. A collective probably wouldn't want to throw NIL dollars at players the coaches weren't high on, for example.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 01:17 PM - Post#366414
In response to Penndemonium
Some Ivy players have small NIL deals with 3rd parties. A collective would be different though. Players are supposed to provide quid pro quo services for the money. This is somewhat of a joke but it’s not supposed to be pay for play. There needs to be some sort of “work” on the players part. It’s hard to imagine how this would really work unless organized with the universities and their booster groups.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-25-24 02:21 PM - Post#366421
In response to AsiaSunset
Couldn't an NIL collective just license the players' NIL - either getting them to wear a sponsor's logo outside of games, or else allowing sponsors to feature them in some advertisement or appearance?
By the way, this is a hypothetical. I have no intention of doing anything, as this is nowhere in my list of life priorities.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-25-24 02:49 PM - Post#366423
In response to Penndemonium
Wawa of PA creates a NIL which goes into a collective for all Penn MBB. Player is required to post one social media post a week about how yummy Wawa coffee is for which they get paid $XX. It's pretty simple.
HOWEVER, Penn financial aid finds about the $XX in NIL money, which is income, and then adjusts their aid package down based on the increased income. Isn't the Ivy League great?
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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03-25-24 02:50 PM - Post#366424
In response to Penndemonium
I'm imagining if we had NIL during my days at Penn.
Hassan Duncombe (may he rest in peace) shilling for Abner's.
Bruce Lefkowitz advertising for a slip and fall lawyer.
John Stovall doing ads for a cardiologist. (Sorry.)
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-25-24 03:09 PM - Post#366427
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Lefko and Bernstein shilling bagels.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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03-25-24 04:31 PM - Post#366433
In response to penn nation
Roughly how many zeros are in $XX in the WaWa's deal?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 04:39 PM - Post#366435
In response to QHoops
Enough for 2 Sizzlies.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-25-24 06:25 PM - Post#366441
In response to palestra38
So far the evidence of a change in Ivy BB status shows two things. The first is a modest increase in transfers.
Second there is little or no change in the league's success. Here are three stats Average of lowest team rating - wins in the dance - Average of league rank.
Oughts 95.3 - 0 - 24.7
Teens 67.3 - 4 - 17.2
Twenties 74.8 - 3 - 14.8
I will also mention that the Ivy women got two into the dance. A first for either gender.
It appears we don't know what the future holds.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-25-24 07:16 PM - Post#366443
In response to UPIA1968
I will also mention that the Ivy women got two into the dance. A first for either gender.
Not true. In 2016, Penn (10-seed) & Princeton (11-seed) both made the Women's NCAA Tournament.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-25-24 11:39 PM - Post#366461
In response to 13otto
I apologize for being the little black cloud here, but I think the only realistic long-term planning for Penn and the Ivies involves answering the question, "How are we going to succeed in Division II (or whatever the level we're going to be exiled to will be called)?" As you know, I've been thinking this was going to be coming for a long while anyway, but here's the clincher:
Portal Insanity
To fill in the story from other sources: guy who was the biggest recruit from Iowa and one of the best OT prospects in the country a year ago bailed on the Hawkeyes a week before signing day and went to Alabama instead, at least partially because the Tide made him a better NIL offer. He had an allegedly shaky freshman season (though still good enough to be all-freshman both in the SEC and nationally--imagine what he'd have done if he had been firing on all cylinders!), and then Saban hung it up, so he decided to transfer to Iowa in the spring. He spent two months on campus there, then over spring break decides to transfer back to Alabama--almost certainly due to getting a better NIL offer this time. The best part? He made at least a little NIL money from the Iowa collective which he does not have to pay back.
Now, as it is, the upper-echelon schools are already essentially in minor-league sports here, playing people to play, and even faster than I thought it would happen. The only reason they're even keeping the smallest fig-leaf of pretense that they're not paying them is because they're not quite ready to deal with things like worker's comp and collective bargaining yet. However, stuff like this is going to end their reluctance real quick. As it is, Iowa has to adopt the most God-awful boring defensive strategy to remain competitive in the Big 10. From now on, if they're shelling out the big bucks for players, they're going to want them under contract for four years, and they won't be the only ones. Therefore, pretty soon here, they're going to move to explicitly playing athletes to play, and there is absolutely no way the Ivies are ever going to do that. (This is even assuming they would allow us to stay at their level anyway, and the elimination of auto bids to the NIT and the noises about expanding the NCAA's don't bode well in that regard.) So, down to whatever the highest level of more-or-less amateur athletics we will go, at least for basketball. At this point, I give it ten years max.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
Edited by dperry on 03-26-24 12:03 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-26-24 05:50 AM - Post#366466
In response to dperry
That's not necessarily a bad thing. As long as some major programs pay the big bucks, look for many schools and the vast majority of private Universities to prefer to play in a student athlete environment. There can be a real competition at that level and the Ivies will be very competitive, as they are in all non-revenue sports.
There is no way the vast majority of Division 1 schools can compete in a pay for play environment.
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mbaprof
Senior
Posts: 345
Age: 67
Reg: 12-24-11
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03-26-24 04:47 PM - Post#366544
In response to CM
Would be easy to do WaWa, first time i met AJ as a freshman he was buying a gallon of milk there after practice. Knew we had a winner!
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-26-24 05:23 PM - Post#366564
In response to dperry
Even DII provides full athletic scholarships.
Talking NIL in the Ivys is the cart well ahead of the horse, unless the starting point is zeroing out tuition as a minimum.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-26-24 07:06 PM - Post#366571
In response to CM
Yes, the new environment will clearly favor the Power 4 conferences and schools willing to spend for their players. That will leave an awful lot of teams at the next tier, and it is unclear how stratified that tier will be. It's not hard to imagine either scenario - the ivies climbing up the tables because the spread of Ivies vs. the rest of the 2nd tier compresses, or else Ivies lagging all schools in NIL and dropping further.
Back to what I would do if I were Penn... I think I would raise some form of NIL collective. I don't think there is a formal agreement on what to do here, and Penn is at no disadvantage on ability to raise NIL. None of the Ivies are going to spend their endowment on NIL, so HYPr are not likely at an advantage. Penn has as large a population of wealthy alumni pool as any of the Ivies, and it has historically had a more sports interested alumni group - from years of indifference to sports from Harvard and Yale.
The main argument against NIL money is that it would be competitive with general school fundraising. Right now, even $10M makes a big difference for a basketball program. I think the data would show that winning sports team can inspire giving - there could be a return on investment. I don't think it would vastly undermine the league, there probably aren't Ivy rules against it, and financially it would have a standalone fundraising and spending budget. It wouldn't directly impact the school's balance sheet. It would also alleviate some of the antitrust and unionization conversations around the league.
Strategically, it could lead to more TV appearances, which are good free advertising. It could also bring in revenue from ticket sales, merchandising, and sponsor revenue.
This would at least be a part of my plan for Penn. Better to be the league pioneer than the last one to integrate more active NIL.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-26-24 08:58 PM - Post#366573
In response to Penndemonium
I think there's another much more important argument against NIL collectives. It has to do with the fundamental mission of the institution, loss of control over varsity athletics, and the risk/reward calculation. If I were an Ivy president I would do everything in my power to prevent this. As much as I'd like to see this as a fan, as an alum who cares about the institution as a whole I can't support it.
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-26-24 09:12 PM - Post#366574
In response to Silver Maple
Silver Maple, respect your opinion. Curious how you feel this situation differs from similar outside funding sources that touch other aspects of student life at Penn. For example, engineering/business students have access to alumni-funded incubators/venture funds that specifically are created to invest in Penn students' startup ideas. Has that caused the sort of problems you are concerned about?
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-26-24 09:24 PM - Post#366575
In response to GoQuakersGo
Engineering and business student entrepreneurship projects aren't a huge spectator sport that brings in massive TV money and is the source of billions in sports betting. So I don't think there's all that much incentive for anything beyond minor corruption (not that that's a good thing).
However, pursuing success in what intercollegiate athletics has now become brings the risk of all sorts of scandals: recruiting, academic, point shaving, player misconduct, financial shenanigans and so forth. And there's very little the universities can do to mitigate these risks, as so much of the NIL money will likely be outside their control. What's more, the potential rewards are dwarfed by the risks. There's not that much revenue that an Ivy is ever going to generate (particularly when you consider how wealthy these universities are already), and the institutions certainly don't need the publicity that sports success can bring-- these are eight of the most high-profile institutions of higher learning in the world.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-26-24 09:40 PM - Post#366576
In response to Penndemonium
A question that maybe NYCHoops or other basketball fans may know something about. Is there any incentive for the AAU and HS coaches besides illicit cash? What can schools do to turn the recruiting networks towards you that is legal and appropriate (i.e. no cash and strippers)?
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 06:00 AM - Post#366581
In response to Silver Maple
I agree, to some degree, but the NIL/money aspect of college sports has already happened. Penn (or any school) cannot simply ignore it, unless the decision is to go D3.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-27-24 07:51 AM - Post#366582
In response to CM
I think this has already been mentioned by someone, but wouldn’t NIL money be outside income which would offset an Ivy financial grant?
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 07:56 AM - Post#366583
In response to AsiaSunset
Yes, 100%. Basically any meaningful Ivy NIL deal would have to start with enough to overcome paying tuition.
Essentially the whole Ivy non-scholarship policy is finally being seen for what it is. It is a D3 policy in a D1 environment. I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has, but times are changing fast. If having Perkins (Penn) and Mack (Harvard) leaving the IL isn't enough to raise the alarm bells I don't know what will be.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-27-24 08:46 AM - Post#366587
In response to CM
Clearly it should raise alarm bells. But that brings us to two crucial questions: 1) what, exactly is the problem here? 2) What's the goal to be achieved?
Most of us here would answer #1 along the lines of 'the conference is in on a path to becoming completely uncompetitive in D1 basketball,' and would answer #2 as being something like 'get the conference back to having most of it's teams ranked in the top 50% of D1, and a few in the top 25%.' However, I doubt very much that the senior administrators at the individual schools would answer the same way. They would probably answer #1 with 'the league's performance in D1 is in danger of becoming a source of humiliation to the individual institutions and their alumni,' and #2 with 'let's make sure our basketball teams aren't a source of too much embarrassment.' Those are very different problem/solution sets. Any solutions proposed here need to acknowledge the university presidents' perceptions of the problem to be solved.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-27-24 09:10 AM - Post#366588
In response to Silver Maple
Again, I think we have to wait for the situation to shake out. There is no way 351 schools can compete in a pay for play environment. There will be inevitable change in the Division 1 geography. Few schools actually make money from basketball even in a no-pay environment--"profitabili ty" is based on donations, not revenue, which almost always is less than expenses. Here are 2 websites ---the first lists return on investment (expenses to wins), the second lists revenue.
https://athleticdirectoru .com/articles/college-bas...
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/schools-that -make-...
As you can see, even Duke's remarkable basketball revenue ($47 million) is less than half of its expenses.
No matter how you look at it, it's a really bad investment unless it brings in the mega donors to pay for it. While the Ivies clearly have alums who could match or exceed donations to basketball of schools like Duke, is there any desire by the biggest donors to contribute to basketball rather than a new Nanotechnology building with their name on it? No. And most other Division 1 schools have even less desire among alumni groups to pay the kind of money necessary to support an ersatz professional team in the NIL era. Division 1 is going to fracture and the Ivies may benefit from that. But is there any likelihood the Ivies will try and compete seriously for NIL players? No way.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 09:23 AM - Post#366590
In response to palestra38
I agree that the NIL environment is going to see a lot of turbulence over the next few years and some of the dollar figures being banded about today will not exist in a few years.
But, and this is a big but, if the Ivys choose to continue not offering athletic scholarships the sledding will only get tougher. Because NIL is not going to go away entirely and with more money sluiced into the system the lack of scholarships will seem even more antiquated and absurd.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 09:28 AM - Post#366591
In response to CM
I agree that scholarships are the logical next step. I also think that this will be the result as the Choi lawsuit moves along. The Ivy League holds the weaker hand and discovery and an ultimate trial is something they should want to avoid.
The motion to dismiss was filed 10 months ago. I don’t think it will be successful; however, it feels like the court is really taking it’s time.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 09:46 AM - Post#366592
In response to AsiaSunset
The Judge did attend Princeton undergrad and Yale Law School.
Just sayin'
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-27-24 09:49 AM - Post#366593
In response to Penndemonium
Great question...do you mean historically or current day? Also is that a general question or Ivy related?
This thread is really insightful and well thought out..i'm appreciative of everyone whose brought to light some of the current and future roadblocks the league faces
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 03:44 PM - Post#366611
In response to palestra38
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
No name coach is coming to Penn, nor are any talented players in the portal coming to Penn, when there's no NIL money to lure the players. What's the point in recruiting a Perkins or Mack, when they'll enter the portal after their freshman season. Brian Earl couldn't get out of the Ivy League fast enough as evidenced by his taking the William & Mary job. Whether or not you think the head coach is the problem, replacing him wouldn't be addressing the real issue. Any solution has to include the letters NIL.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-27-24 04:03 PM - Post#366613
In response to 13otto
Don’t worry, the Ivies will end up in a collective bargaining agreement with the SEIU. Then they’ll stop having to go to class and so scholarships will be irrelevant.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 04:36 PM - Post#366615
In response to 13otto
Gonna go out on a limb and say W+M isn't dropping a huge amount of NIL $, but you know what it is dropping? Free tuition, room and board, and a cost of attendance check every semester. The Ivys are the ONLY D1 schools that basketball players have to pay to play at.
Period. Start there, address that way way way before talking about NIL with the Great Eight. And if the Ivys are resolute in not making that change then go down to D3 and stop pretending.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 07:15 PM - Post#366620
In response to CM
CM, I don't know your background around basketball, but if you're right about NIL counting against financial aid substantially, then it does sound logical that scholarships are the first step.
The first problem is that I think the Ivies would be more opposed to scholarships than NIL. Scholarships need to be funded by the endowment or by the budget. NIL can exist outside of that if funded by alumni. Also, the school doesn't give scholarships for being a first chair tuba player in the orchestra. The administration would probably find it more symmetrical to allow athletes to make money from their individual work in the sport, just as tuba players can earn all the money they want from teaching, working at summer camps, or even taking endorsements.
The second factor is that the pool of NIL would eventually need to cover more than tuition and board. For good college athletes, they can now probably earn as much in college as they can in Europe. Scholarships probably wouldn't be able to index to the real total compensation of college athletes, whereas NIL could.
I think going to DII or DIII, whether real or defacto is more likely. As someone else mentioned, not many schools can really make money off of basketball. A sound business model around NCAA basketball will need to include robust revenue from conference TV money, NCAA Tournament money, merchandise, and tickets to justify the spend. I could imagine the Ivies becoming more competitive if they paid the players adequately, but it would take longer for the revenue to follow. The conference won't be yielding big TV contracts or NCAA appearance fees anytime soon. Merchandise sales would take years to build as the teams got better. Also, the Ivies that are later to spend would actually be more profitable in the short term. They would get their share of the NCAA pool money, regardless of their team's performance.
So if you were Donahue, Earl, Henderson, etc. how do you build a business plan for the AD and the school president? Remember that the school leaders care more about the academic standing, the money from research and the hospital, the endowment, and generally avoiding conflict/scandal at the school. Sports are pretty distant in the priorities...
I think the conference as a whole would need to take a plan to a sports network that they will spend $X on building their sports programs for a TV contract of $Y. That way, they could keep revenue and costs proportionate as they build.
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james
Masters Student
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Age: 49
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03-28-24 12:38 PM - Post#366633
In response to Penndemonium
there are some good takes here.
i have decided to let it go. someone here said the alumni are not going to support it anyway if it's the dollar figure net of financial aid need to be competitive which is like 250k for a good ivy player who could start for a power 5 team.
based on my experience thus far i agree. there us just a thinner base of support with some very deep pockets.
maybe penn or princeton is different.
at uga the avg booster is ponying up $15k for ticket rights + a parking pass. then they are asked to do a collective contribution.
at the end of the day it's a lot and you need a very large base of support. that us just football but the analog works for basketball blue bloods too
as it was described to me-lots of dentist types and others who give a few hundred to thousands of $s per annum and maybe to different sports
the reality is an sec program that plays big football has 75,000/100,000 seats subsidized with this medallion system and there is no limit to there fandom
we lose this game and the big money knows this and considers it futile or this is the preliminary feedback i received when i tried to push the discussion informally
i think we get pillaged wait on reform and then drop down to whatever level
it is depressing but it is what it is
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-28-24 01:14 PM - Post#366634
In response to Penndemonium
Those are the right questions, but based on how college athletics has moved in the past decade, and keeping in mind the Ivys continued commitment to not awarding scholarships/NIL, the only change is going to come from losing court cases - the Choi case specifically. But perhaps not even then.
And I hear that argument that the tuba player and the basketball player are equal in the eyes of the school, but are people tuning in to ESPN+ and buying tickets to watch the tuba player? But, again, I don't think the Ivys care or will do anything about it. They'll wake up one morning and realize they're a third class baskteball conference because they've stuck their collective heads in the sand as the world shifted around them.
I am acquaintances with an Ivy player who took a 5th year to play at another mid-major conference program. And when I asked how it was: It was free, I banked some dollars, had a great time flying on the school's private jet to games, and was generally treated super well. Glad I got my degree from the Ivy, but there's a big world of college sports out there and it's shocking to see it close up.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 02:17 PM - Post#366641
In response to CM
For me, the most obvious answer is Scholarships are a must.
It's one thing to pass up on certain money in the moment, it's another level to have to stomach not only getting money, but also putting out hundreds of thousands of dollars in cost (or having your parent do so).
An Ivy degree definitely has a value and a benefit long term, but if you are a kid who can get $250K+ (going off numbers shared here) now and get school for free, why the heck would you take $0+ and pay out $250K+?
It then becomes a net loss of $500K+ which for many would be life changing money.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-28-24 03:50 PM - Post#366645
In response to Mike Porter
Nothing says the Ivies have to provide any level of financial support for basketball, any more than giving me money when I swam as a Freshman, or sang in the Glee Club. What it is that makes bball or football different from any of the other extracurricular activities? I suppose the two sports may have some entertainment value, but so did the Glee Club, or Mask and Wig.
Anti-trust law, however, is likely to prevent the schools from banning outside support for its athletes. So in the end it is the alumni who will decide how good the program is.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:20 PM - Post#366647
In response to UPIA1968
I see the issue as the current operation of NIL. It started years ago with Ed Obanon (prepped by a friend) to profit from your NIL from an independent source. If Caitlin Clark played for Penn there is no way they could object to State Farm commercials. But collectives paying players to just play at Penn leaves the choice: Pro or D3 amateur. I've been a fan since 67 and I'm not sure D3 isn't the better way to go. Like football years ago.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-28-24 04:33 PM - Post#366649
In response to borschtbelt
Feels like we are headed to D1-AA basketball. But with the vast majority of the D1 teams not being the (basketball and revenue) royalty, you could have up to 300 programs in that classification. That could lead to a really good, let's say 64 game tourney at season's end.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 04:34 PM - Post#366650
In response to 91Quake
A 64 game tourney would be exhausting!
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:45 PM - Post#366653
In response to palestra38
Not if we meet Princeton in the finals.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:49 PM - Post#366654
In response to 91Quake
I think that's what the power 4have in mind, proposing an 80 team tourney. The play in 16 will all come from smaller conferences and a few power 5. The 64 left will almost all be power . Basketball and football are college pro sports, If they can bust the PAC 12 they can bust everyone else.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 04:50 PM - Post#366655
In response to borschtbelt
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:59 PM - Post#366656
In response to palestra38
Agree. FSU is suing over the fee for departure (or being sued). Clemson wants out. I hear UNC is exploring. I hope these schools realize they all can't be near the top of the SEC with any regularity.I guess the $$ is more important. Wait until they pay the golf team to fly all over the country with clubs
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-28-24 05:06 PM - Post#366657
In response to palestra38
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football.
I see two big questions after that. The first is whether the Big 12 is able to survive. They've tried to rebound from losing Texas and Oklahoma, but it's not promising. The second is how long the Big East is able to compete with the big boys once the football money becomes even more overwhelming. For now, they've got some of the premier teams in the country, but you have to wonder about UConn looking to leave again and Hurley potentially moving to the SEC or Big 10 if it doesn't (He'd be one of the few people UK would want to follow Cal).
Could easily end up in a situation where the SEC and Big 10 split up the rest of the ACC and Big 12 between them, and the Big East fades to become more like the old A-10, a very good 3 or 4 bid mid-major league. The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-28-24 05:16 PM - Post#366659
In response to mobrien
The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
We've already seen power conference commissioners complaining after all of the conference tourney upsets in the less prestigious conferences. They're complaining that their conferences aren't getting more bids that they "deserve". As if the SEC has any ground to stand on after its mostly miserable performance this go-around in the NCAA tourney.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-28-24 06:27 PM - Post#366662
In response to borschtbelt
Can even D3 prohibit NIL anymore? I realize that the amounts would be small, but it seems inevitable that someone in D3 would pay just a little bit more than the rest...
I was reading about ND and their position as an independent, and mulled a college athletics world that isn't bound by these conferences and the NCAA. Perhaps the Washington St., Oregon St., Stanford, and Notre Dames of the world could start a movement towards independence of their athletic programs. I could see Florida State leaving the ACC. Maybe the Ivies could start to behave more like independently run athletic programs who simply agree to compete against each other? Are the march madness fees just too high for teams to walk away from? It's hard to imagine what it would look like with the NCAA monopoly turning into confederations of independents. Maybe the NCAAs could restructure itself more like the Premier League - where teams earn their way up and down into better divisions.
All of our ideas so far seem to end in one place, though. Either pay up for bigger athletics through scholarships and NIL, or just lay down.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 06:35 PM - Post#366663
In response to Penndemonium
Sad, isn't it.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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03-29-24 06:05 AM - Post#366665
In response to borschtbelt
Sad, isn't it.
Yup. College sports are finished. It’s become the G league with better pay.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2692
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-29-24 12:48 PM - Post#366674
In response to yoyo
How will the Patriot League handle this? Could we form our own student-athlete conference with the Patriot League? Maybe play a full schedule against all schools but have two divisions?
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 01:52 PM - Post#366677
In response to Penndemonium
Jon had this 100% correct. Of the 350 or so Div 1 basketball schools only a handful will be able to pay what will become necessary to compete. When the vast majority are relegated to a new Div 1A will the national fan interest be continued for the handful of schools in the 2 to 4 new super conferences. Will the fans of the existing Mid America or OVC, etc. really give a crap about Div 1? The only thing that will remain to drive that interest is gambling
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 02:48 PM - Post#366680
In response to slane
Like I've said, I am fine with watching pure amateur athletics. But I don't think it would be legal anymore for the Ivy or Patriot leagues to enforce amateurism. You would be asking for all the schools and athletes fall in line - which would be collusion. So any team that wants to win more than the rest would provide some sort of benefit.
So we're left with a pretty awkward situation. We probably can't play the all-out NIL / scholarship war, but the D3 approach isn't that pristine either.
Maybe an approach for the D3 category of schools is to do something different - have a portal of athletes that agree to certain principles of athletics participation. Those principles would spell out the financial elements. The schools would not run the portal, but they would recruit their pool of athletes from a common pool of athletes that agree to the terms in order to be in the portal. The portal allows for the schools to provide admissions favoritism and no outside compensation to those athletes that agree to it. In other words, it levels the playing field of compensation and attracts real student athletes who mainly care about admission to college. How is it different from the past? First, athletes volunteer to be on this portal. It probably isn't an anti-trust concern as long as there is no exclusivity. Both schools and athletes can elect to use the portal or not. It creates a pool of schools and athletes that commit themselves to limited compensation of some shape or form. It establishes the financial terms of athlete's participation with a third party, so the schools are not themselves taking unfair advantage of athletes.
Returning to the topic of a plan, I do think it behooves our team to be slightly ahead of the pack and to set the tone. The risk of being an innovator is to waste some money or to raise the stakes in a way which forces a counter-response from the other Ivies. That said, it does return us to the key drivers of success: Recruiting (including compensation) and coaching/leadership.
My first recommendation would be an advisory board of alumni players and boosters that works with the program. I've found that the athletic department is not very good at long range planning. They just worry day-to-day about keeping the programs afloat and dealing with NCAA compliance. I think it is left to the coaches to make an overall plan for a program, and most simply aren't good at it. Neither is the Athletic Department. There are alumni who are seasoned executives who have enough separation to think about the bigger picture and drive accountability. These alumni boards also tend to be good at raising funds - the organization of a core group tends to activate their broader community. This is good for the athletic department, the coaches, and most importantly the program overall. The board also allows sensitive subjects to be raised with school administrators. For example, the AD or coach can tell the school President "our advisory board has requested..."
An early first milestone would be to build enough success to keep season ticket holders. The members of this board who are objecting to season tickets aren't doing it just because the team is losing. We've been doing that well for a long time. They are objecting to bad scheduling, bad service to ticket-holders, and no end in sight for the program. We have a tone-deaf school that doesn't seem to care. The athletic department just isn't accountable enough and service oriented enough to fans. A core of season ticket holders would add another base-line of financial support for the program.
I am a big believer in professional sports that alignment from ownership to front-office to coaches and to players breeds sustainable success. It is clear that our program suffers at multiple layers. An advisory board would help to provide leadership to an otherwise rudderless program.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-29-24 04:51 PM - Post#366689
In response to Penndemonium
Penndomonium: I like your thoughts here. I would mention Penn Basketball already has an advisor board of alumns (players and boosters) that meets quarterly.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 05:46 PM - Post#366699
In response to Penndemonium
As a group, the Ivy members sponsor the greatest number of varsity sports per school of any athletic conference in the country. How would you propose to offer athletic scholarships for only the basketball teams. To do it for all sports is far more expensive for the Ivies than for virtually any non-Ivy. (Of course the Ivies with their multi-billion dollar endowments could afford to do it but they never will.). Granting athletic scholarships on only some of the varsity sports is an invitation to litigation that the Ivies would lose.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-24 05:59 PM - Post#366700
In response to slane
There are only 6 full ride sports currently in D1 and many of the athletes at Penn and other Ivies across those 6 and others are already getting financial aid grants. The cost is not the real issue.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 06:37 PM - Post#366706
In response to AsiaSunset
Is that correct? What are the 6 full ride sports?
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 67
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 06:38 PM - Post#366707
In response to slane
I find it hard to believe that that has not been challenged.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-24 06:49 PM - Post#366711
In response to slane
Football, men’s and women’s basketball, tennis, volleyball and gymnastics. Plus - even on these 6, you don’t need to give everyone an athletic scholarship. You just can’t give them partial athletic scholarships. It must be full or nothing.
All other sports are called equivalency sports. You can give player A a full ride, B a partial, or C none at all.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:00 PM - Post#366714
In response to AsiaSunset
I'm not sure I understand. I thought we don't give scholarships or full rides unless there is demonstrated financial need? We have gymnasts on a full ride for sports?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:06 PM - Post#366715
In response to PennFan10
Can you give any background about this advisory board? Do they give input into the coaching decisions? Any idea of some of the participants? For me, ideally this board would have a cross section of players from various generations, and a few prominent other alumni who care (i.e. Ed Rendell types). Even better if some of our Chuck Daly coaching tree types can also be a part of it.
Any idea about how the advisory board's relationship with the coaching staff and athletic department is going?
This is all news to me.
Penndomonium: I like your thoughts here. I would mention Penn Basketball already has an advisor board of alumns (players and boosters) that meets quarterly.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:09 PM - Post#366716
In response to palestra38
Amen on this.
Someone mentioned Duke. It's true that they don't bring much to football audiences, but they have improved and Dukies seem to be taking hold. I've seen photos from basketball team boosters that are now supporting the football team.
While I have respect for the ACC schools, I hope the conference crumbles because of football. It would indeed serve them right for almost destroying a great basketball conference (the Big East) to help football.
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-29-24 08:41 PM - Post#366717
In response to Penndemonium
Danny Wolf entering the portal.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-30-24 04:40 AM - Post#366727
In response to 91Quake
This is probably the best for the league - it's one thing for the league to fade gradually into oblivion, but the Ivies need to suffer this kind of attrition of all of its stars for the Ivy Presidents to even notice. Even then, I'm not sure they'll prioritize a solution.
If it happens slowly, they can convince themselves it isn't a strong signal. All at once across the league, and at least the reason is clear.
How many All-Ivy players so far? Slajchert, Nana, Mack, Wolf... any others?
I didn't watch the Yale games, but I just watched Wolf's YouTube videos. You don't see many Ivy big men with such skills and strength.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-30-24 08:37 AM - Post#366730
In response to Penndemonium
It’s conceivable that what’s happening in college basketball could hasten the inevitable I.e settlement of the Choi suit.
It’s difficult to ascertain whether any of this is even remotely close to top of mind for Ivy Presidents. We don’t even have a new President in place at Penn yet and the interim is managing a school with an academic budget in excess of 5 billion and a total budget in excess of 12 billion.
Just maybe they are not concerned about the same things many of us are.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-30-24 09:11 AM - Post#366733
In response to Penndemonium
Amen on this.
Someone mentioned Duke. It's true that they don't bring much to football audiences, but they have improved and Dukies seem to be taking hold. I've seen photos from basketball team boosters that are now supporting the football team.
While I have respect for the ACC schools, I hope the conference crumbles because of football. It would indeed serve them right for almost destroying a great basketball conference (the Big East) to help football.
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
The elephant in the room here is the fact that all of the conference realignments and consolidation have been driven by power conference football interests. This is as much of a threat to the college basketball ecosystem as anything. I contend that the NIL issue is a symptom, not the underlying disease.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-30-24 09:11 PM - Post#366754
In response to weinhauers_ghost
There are two segments to college sports. In one big-time revenue from football and basketball fund all the other sports. In the other the universities funds sports.
The two segments are becoming farther and farther apart. My son has been predicting for years now that the big schools will withdraw from the NCAA, not wanting to share their revenue from football and B-ball. I think he is right.
Perhaps the answer will be a collection of organizations for the various sports. In football there will be no interaction. B-ball will, I think look much like today except the Big Guys will control the dance.
As to having an all commers tournament. That already occurs with the exception of the Ivies. The conference tournaments are the early rounds.
Thinking about the transfer rule. I see two issues. The first is the Dingle/Wolf issue. There has been for many years a distinct gap in talent between the majors and the others. This will just increase the difference a little. The other is the player happiness issue that will put much more pressure on coaching to keep their valuable players happy. Those of you on the Eddie Holland bandwagon should be pleased. If SD is unfairly ignoring him he can transfer. Note that he hasn't.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-30-24 09:45 PM - Post#366757
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Completely agree. The economics of football have so outpaced the economics of the other college sports, that football is negatively impacting all the other sports that are now traveling cross country for a conference game. College basketball is beholden to the economic realities of college football, but likely has some input - every other college sport is a taker and marches to football’s beat and basketball’s chorus.
Not that this will ever happen – but the question that should be asked: “If just college football was reorganized today with a clean sheet of paper and one not beholden to conference systems and past traditions, what would be the best system in 2024?”
There are a lot of possibilities of systems that makes more sense, creates more buzz and generates higher revenue than the current model. But likely no broad desire to be thoughtful – until economic reality besets enough schools, and schools have to rethink
What would I do: I would construct an eight tier “English football” division style system. 32 teams in a division and within a division, there are two 16 team conferences that play an 8-8 home and home schedule. Top 8 in each conference play a 16-game post season tournament. As do the bottom 8. There would be some relegation system where bottom 4-8 teams in each subdivision move down and are replaced with the best 4-8 teams from the lower subdivision. Relegation Bowl games would make for great TV. In time each school would find its correct tier.
All other sports can go back to their old more logical regional conferences and act independently of Football.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-31-24 01:05 AM - Post#366759
In response to JDP
We've gone beyond Penn's strategy and Ivy strategy to the broader NCAA issue, which is appropriate - we're all still trying to wrap our heads around that. Penn obviously can't shape the broader issues in isolation, but I suppose it could help lead the Ivies into new ways, a withdrawal from the NCAAs, or a different business model. This should be an MBA project for sure. I suppose if an alumni wanted to make an impact, a different way to support Penn basketball would be to sponsor a Bain type of report on how to navigate this. We have tons of Whartonites out here, right?
The Ivies could take themselves out of the NCAA framework, but right now there isn't enough incentive. Our basketball players like playing a national schedule, Penn gets some tourney money regardless of their performance, and they don't even have to fund scholarships. They get to claim they are playing their own game as the only non-scholarship league, being more true to the student-athlete archetype. They can let the NCAA take the heat on all equity issues with this, except for scholarships.
So how can Penn differentiate itself? One is through a sports management program. If it aligned itself with its many graduates in sports management and ownership, I could see that being a compelling path. I personally know of several Penn graduates that are VERY well placed. There used to be a few professors who had very good reputations in the space. There was a guy in the law school. There was another from Wharton. They could take courses in marketing, contracts, and more. There are multiple professional teams in Philadelphia and the region. There are multiple college basketball teams and the Big 5. There are people in the sports agency business. Penn's communication program would be a great launch into sports journalism and broadcasting. If Penn could pull together such a unique program, it could be the M&T of sports. Play a sport and major in sports management. Enrolling at Penn would have amazing internships ready-made. Imagine interning with Comcast (maybe courtesy of Brian Roberts?).
Now that I think about this, all it would take is some folks to fund a bit of endowment for sports management, and make it highly collaborative with the basketball coach and alumni board.
This program might not be enough to override big cash going to players from major programs, but it could be enough to move it to the upper tier of mid-majors and at least well into the upper half of Div I. The internships could have some pay dynamics that help the payment shortfall.
This is the type of stuff the school and coaches don't always address holistically. How to bring all of the resources of Penn together, financial and non-financial. Penn is an incredible platform, and we are getting beaten out by just playing the same game as everyone else. I realize that the coaches have probably created some of these links, but help create the best sports management program in the country - the one where people in the industry try to recruit student athletes from. They could study law, business, biology, engineering, data science, and communications in an interdisciplinary way.
I realize that not all athletes will want to study this, but I'd imagine they could attract some good ones this way - and not just for basketball or football.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-31-24 05:52 AM - Post#366760
In response to Penndemonium
Add management and leadership to the interdisciplinary studies.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-31-24 04:15 PM - Post#366770
In response to Penndemonium
Penn sports issues outside of basketball:
https://x.com/POPSlockndropit/statu s/1774214276330...
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-31-24 04:23 PM - Post#366771
In response to JDP
That's irritating.
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Go Green
PhD Student
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Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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04-01-24 12:26 PM - Post#366786
In response to mobrien
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football..
Not that I have insights better than anyone else, but my gut is that FSU, Clemson, and UNC all easily find landing spots. Miami, NC State, and UVA probably will as well.
Everyone else... lots of luck (although Va Tech and Georgia Tech are probably the strongest of the rest).
If the Big 10 and SEC didn't want Stanford (academics) and UConn (basketball), it's hard to see them inviting Duke.
But who knows?
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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04-02-24 10:33 PM - Post#366865
In response to UPIA1968
Those of you on the Eddie Holland bandwagon should be pleased. If SD is unfairly ignoring him he can transfer. Note that he hasn't.
He’s going to give up a Penn degree for the chance at more minutes somewhere else but no shot at pro ball? I know it’s a lot to ask that he doesn’t sit for two weeks…
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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04-03-24 10:07 PM - Post#366943
In response to borschtbelt
Agree. FSU is suing over the fee for departure (or being sued). Clemson wants out. I hear UNC is exploring. I hope these schools realize they all can't be near the top of the SEC with any regularity.I guess the $$ is more important. Wait until they pay the golf team to fly all over the country with clubs
a.) I don't know, given FSU's history and Clemson's recent success, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they can contend in the SEC. As for UNC, they may well be thinking of it in terms of the fate of the basketball team being linked to that of the football team if the same people end up controlling both.
b.) It'll be interesting to see whether they can get out of the ACC contract or not. While it's true that the terms are pretty draconian, it's also true that no one pointed a gun at their head and made them do it; they could have gone to another conference if they had wanted to.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
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Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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04-03-24 10:28 PM - Post#366944
In response to mobrien
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football.
I see two big questions after that. The first is whether the Big 12 is able to survive. They've tried to rebound from losing Texas and Oklahoma, but it's not promising. The second is how long the Big East is able to compete with the big boys once the football money becomes even more overwhelming. For now, they've got some of the premier teams in the country, but you have to wonder about UConn looking to leave again and Hurley potentially moving to the SEC or Big 10 if it doesn't (He'd be one of the few people UK would want to follow Cal).
Could easily end up in a situation where the SEC and Big 10 split up the rest of the ACC and Big 12 between them, and the Big East fades to become more like the old A-10, a very good 3 or 4 bid mid-major league. The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
Again, I'm not sure that the ACC contract is going to be easily breakable. That being said, when USC and UCLA announced they were jumping to the Big 10, I immediately thought that if I was Oregon State or Washington State, I would be screaming at the commissioner and the rest of the league every meeting to merge with the Big 12, because if it became a matter of people picking over the carcass, they were going to get left behind. If FSU and Clemson do succeed in getting out of the ACC, I'm advocating exactly the same strategy for Wake and BC, because the same is true for them. I think Brett Yormark has done an incredible job leading the Big 12, given that it was a dead league walking even just a couple of years ago, but if I were him and got an offer like that, I would take it. Particularly if you could keep UNC onside, you'd immediately have the best basketball conference in the country, and you'd have enough football oomph to remain credible, particularly since most of the schools are in growing states. Again, you have to keep as many schools as unified as you can, or else the big boys will just swoop in and rend you limb from limb.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Go Green
PhD Student
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Age: 52
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04-04-24 05:44 AM - Post#366952
In response to dperry
That being said, when USC and UCLA announced they were jumping to the Big 10, I immediately thought that if I was Oregon State or Washington State, I would be screaming at the commissioner and the rest of the league every meeting to merge with the Big 12, because if it became a matter of people picking over the carcass, they were going to get left behind.
Not sure the Big 12 was ever interested in taking on 10 schools. At least I never saw anything indicating that was a realistic option.
But the Pac-12 did put together a TV package with very favorable terms with Apple after USC/UCLA defected. Phil Knight liked it--which would have ensured that Oregon stayed put (and that was half the battle right there).
Unfortunately, Washington didn't have Knight's foresight. They panicked and jumped ship. After that... the Pac-12 breakup was inevitable.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-04-24 08:14 AM - Post#366955
In response to dperry
You mention BC. For the former Big East schools whose basketball programs have all tanked since they joined the ACC (Syracuse and Pitt and Louisville too), nothing would be better than to see the ACC blow up and a true Eastern all-sports conference could be formed--too late for UConn though). With Delaware moving up and James Madison already there, bring in Buffalo and UMass and you have a full conference to get a TV contract. They won't compete with the SEC and Big 10 (20) but they'll do much better than in the ACC, where they all have sucked in both football and basketball.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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04-16-24 01:43 PM - Post#367473
In response to Penndemonium
With the changing landscape in college sports, I suspect there is a silver lining. High School athletes are now down to 4th on the recruiting priority list for current college programs. Coaches now have to spend significant time recruiting the following, in order:
1. Your own players
2. Portal
3. Prep Schools
4. HS Seniors
As a result, there are going to be more Danny Wolf, Malick Mack, Tyler Perkins types available for IL programs as HS players slip through. The downside is, they have to figure out how to keep them once they get them as they quickly move up to #2 if they are good. The Ivy League may give new meaning to "one and done".
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