Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 10:28 PM - Post#366287
In response to Penndemonium
I know that for some Penn sports, there is an alumni board that Meets and constructs plans for how to build the stature of the sport. They raise money for facilities improvements and seem to have some influence with the Athletic Department over the coaching hires. I don't know formally the roles. The individual sports programs get nothing but apathy and neglect from the athletic department. They defer to the coaches for everything, but coaches typically aren't great all-around at every aspect of running a program. The alumni boards help bring advisors to the sport, working together to set direction and priorities. Without leadership, our athletic programs are a rudderless ship. Basketball feels like that now. Does basketball have any leadership from well informed alumni that are positioned to help? Penn's men's squash team has such a board, for example. They just turned around the team into a national champion.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 09:12 AM - Post#366380
In response to Penndemonium
A question for the board is whether or not it’s possible to operate a NIL collective without the endorsement and cooperation of the underlying university. I ask this only because I had heard the Ivy League sent out a strong off the record message to the universities not to.
If we circle back to the original question and think about formulating a plan, if I were the AD, I’d certainly want to do a sit down with the graduating seniors as well as an exit interview with Tyler Perkins. This may be happening or it may not be happening, but it seems like the logical starting point.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-25-24 09:26 AM - Post#366382
In response to AsiaSunset
If AD did exit interviews with players they'd have to hire all new coaching staffs for both programs.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-25-24 01:02 PM - Post#366413
In response to CM
I don't know much about the NIL process, but it sounds like players are free to sign their own NIL deals outside of the universities. That said, the non-ivy universities are raising funds explicitly for player pay of one form or another from alumni.
I'd imagine alumni are free to raise their own NIL collective, but most would want to do it in parallel and cooperation with the team. A collective probably wouldn't want to throw NIL dollars at players the coaches weren't high on, for example.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 01:17 PM - Post#366414
In response to Penndemonium
Some Ivy players have small NIL deals with 3rd parties. A collective would be different though. Players are supposed to provide quid pro quo services for the money. This is somewhat of a joke but it’s not supposed to be pay for play. There needs to be some sort of “work” on the players part. It’s hard to imagine how this would really work unless organized with the universities and their booster groups.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-25-24 02:21 PM - Post#366421
In response to AsiaSunset
Couldn't an NIL collective just license the players' NIL - either getting them to wear a sponsor's logo outside of games, or else allowing sponsors to feature them in some advertisement or appearance?
By the way, this is a hypothetical. I have no intention of doing anything, as this is nowhere in my list of life priorities.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-25-24 02:49 PM - Post#366423
In response to Penndemonium
Wawa of PA creates a NIL which goes into a collective for all Penn MBB. Player is required to post one social media post a week about how yummy Wawa coffee is for which they get paid $XX. It's pretty simple.
HOWEVER, Penn financial aid finds about the $XX in NIL money, which is income, and then adjusts their aid package down based on the increased income. Isn't the Ivy League great?
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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03-25-24 02:50 PM - Post#366424
In response to Penndemonium
I'm imagining if we had NIL during my days at Penn.
Hassan Duncombe (may he rest in peace) shilling for Abner's.
Bruce Lefkowitz advertising for a slip and fall lawyer.
John Stovall doing ads for a cardiologist. (Sorry.)
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-25-24 03:09 PM - Post#366427
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Lefko and Bernstein shilling bagels.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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03-25-24 04:31 PM - Post#366433
In response to penn nation
Roughly how many zeros are in $XX in the WaWa's deal?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32833
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-25-24 04:39 PM - Post#366435
In response to QHoops
Enough for 2 Sizzlies.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-25-24 06:25 PM - Post#366441
In response to palestra38
So far the evidence of a change in Ivy BB status shows two things. The first is a modest increase in transfers.
Second there is little or no change in the league's success. Here are three stats Average of lowest team rating - wins in the dance - Average of league rank.
Oughts 95.3 - 0 - 24.7
Teens 67.3 - 4 - 17.2
Twenties 74.8 - 3 - 14.8
I will also mention that the Ivy women got two into the dance. A first for either gender.
It appears we don't know what the future holds.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-25-24 07:16 PM - Post#366443
In response to UPIA1968
I will also mention that the Ivy women got two into the dance. A first for either gender.
Not true. In 2016, Penn (10-seed) & Princeton (11-seed) both made the Women's NCAA Tournament.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-25-24 11:39 PM - Post#366461
In response to 13otto
I apologize for being the little black cloud here, but I think the only realistic long-term planning for Penn and the Ivies involves answering the question, "How are we going to succeed in Division II (or whatever the level we're going to be exiled to will be called)?" As you know, I've been thinking this was going to be coming for a long while anyway, but here's the clincher:
Portal Insanity
To fill in the story from other sources: guy who was the biggest recruit from Iowa and one of the best OT prospects in the country a year ago bailed on the Hawkeyes a week before signing day and went to Alabama instead, at least partially because the Tide made him a better NIL offer. He had an allegedly shaky freshman season (though still good enough to be all-freshman both in the SEC and nationally--imagine what he'd have done if he had been firing on all cylinders!), and then Saban hung it up, so he decided to transfer to Iowa in the spring. He spent two months on campus there, then over spring break decides to transfer back to Alabama--almost certainly due to getting a better NIL offer this time. The best part? He made at least a little NIL money from the Iowa collective which he does not have to pay back.
Now, as it is, the upper-echelon schools are already essentially in minor-league sports here, playing people to play, and even faster than I thought it would happen. The only reason they're even keeping the smallest fig-leaf of pretense that they're not paying them is because they're not quite ready to deal with things like worker's comp and collective bargaining yet. However, stuff like this is going to end their reluctance real quick. As it is, Iowa has to adopt the most God-awful boring defensive strategy to remain competitive in the Big 10. From now on, if they're shelling out the big bucks for players, they're going to want them under contract for four years, and they won't be the only ones. Therefore, pretty soon here, they're going to move to explicitly playing athletes to play, and there is absolutely no way the Ivies are ever going to do that. (This is even assuming they would allow us to stay at their level anyway, and the elimination of auto bids to the NIT and the noises about expanding the NCAA's don't bode well in that regard.) So, down to whatever the highest level of more-or-less amateur athletics we will go, at least for basketball. At this point, I give it ten years max.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
Edited by dperry on 03-26-24 12:03 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32833
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-26-24 05:50 AM - Post#366466
In response to dperry
That's not necessarily a bad thing. As long as some major programs pay the big bucks, look for many schools and the vast majority of private Universities to prefer to play in a student athlete environment. There can be a real competition at that level and the Ivies will be very competitive, as they are in all non-revenue sports.
There is no way the vast majority of Division 1 schools can compete in a pay for play environment.
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mbaprof
Senior
Posts: 345
Age: 67
Reg: 12-24-11
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03-26-24 04:47 PM - Post#366544
In response to CM
Would be easy to do WaWa, first time i met AJ as a freshman he was buying a gallon of milk there after practice. Knew we had a winner!
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-26-24 05:23 PM - Post#366564
In response to dperry
Even DII provides full athletic scholarships.
Talking NIL in the Ivys is the cart well ahead of the horse, unless the starting point is zeroing out tuition as a minimum.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-26-24 07:06 PM - Post#366571
In response to CM
Yes, the new environment will clearly favor the Power 4 conferences and schools willing to spend for their players. That will leave an awful lot of teams at the next tier, and it is unclear how stratified that tier will be. It's not hard to imagine either scenario - the ivies climbing up the tables because the spread of Ivies vs. the rest of the 2nd tier compresses, or else Ivies lagging all schools in NIL and dropping further.
Back to what I would do if I were Penn... I think I would raise some form of NIL collective. I don't think there is a formal agreement on what to do here, and Penn is at no disadvantage on ability to raise NIL. None of the Ivies are going to spend their endowment on NIL, so HYPr are not likely at an advantage. Penn has as large a population of wealthy alumni pool as any of the Ivies, and it has historically had a more sports interested alumni group - from years of indifference to sports from Harvard and Yale.
The main argument against NIL money is that it would be competitive with general school fundraising. Right now, even $10M makes a big difference for a basketball program. I think the data would show that winning sports team can inspire giving - there could be a return on investment. I don't think it would vastly undermine the league, there probably aren't Ivy rules against it, and financially it would have a standalone fundraising and spending budget. It wouldn't directly impact the school's balance sheet. It would also alleviate some of the antitrust and unionization conversations around the league.
Strategically, it could lead to more TV appearances, which are good free advertising. It could also bring in revenue from ticket sales, merchandising, and sponsor revenue.
This would at least be a part of my plan for Penn. Better to be the league pioneer than the last one to integrate more active NIL.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-26-24 08:58 PM - Post#366573
In response to Penndemonium
I think there's another much more important argument against NIL collectives. It has to do with the fundamental mission of the institution, loss of control over varsity athletics, and the risk/reward calculation. If I were an Ivy president I would do everything in my power to prevent this. As much as I'd like to see this as a fan, as an alum who cares about the institution as a whole I can't support it.
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-26-24 09:12 PM - Post#366574
In response to Silver Maple
Silver Maple, respect your opinion. Curious how you feel this situation differs from similar outside funding sources that touch other aspects of student life at Penn. For example, engineering/business students have access to alumni-funded incubators/venture funds that specifically are created to invest in Penn students' startup ideas. Has that caused the sort of problems you are concerned about?
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