Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:00 PM - Post#366714
In response to AsiaSunset
I'm not sure I understand. I thought we don't give scholarships or full rides unless there is demonstrated financial need? We have gymnasts on a full ride for sports?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:06 PM - Post#366715
In response to PennFan10
Can you give any background about this advisory board? Do they give input into the coaching decisions? Any idea of some of the participants? For me, ideally this board would have a cross section of players from various generations, and a few prominent other alumni who care (i.e. Ed Rendell types). Even better if some of our Chuck Daly coaching tree types can also be a part of it.
Any idea about how the advisory board's relationship with the coaching staff and athletic department is going?
This is all news to me.
Penndomonium: I like your thoughts here. I would mention Penn Basketball already has an advisor board of alumns (players and boosters) that meets quarterly.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 08:09 PM - Post#366716
In response to palestra38
Amen on this.
Someone mentioned Duke. It's true that they don't bring much to football audiences, but they have improved and Dukies seem to be taking hold. I've seen photos from basketball team boosters that are now supporting the football team.
While I have respect for the ACC schools, I hope the conference crumbles because of football. It would indeed serve them right for almost destroying a great basketball conference (the Big East) to help football.
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-29-24 08:41 PM - Post#366717
In response to Penndemonium
Danny Wolf entering the portal.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-30-24 04:40 AM - Post#366727
In response to 91Quake
This is probably the best for the league - it's one thing for the league to fade gradually into oblivion, but the Ivies need to suffer this kind of attrition of all of its stars for the Ivy Presidents to even notice. Even then, I'm not sure they'll prioritize a solution.
If it happens slowly, they can convince themselves it isn't a strong signal. All at once across the league, and at least the reason is clear.
How many All-Ivy players so far? Slajchert, Nana, Mack, Wolf... any others?
I didn't watch the Yale games, but I just watched Wolf's YouTube videos. You don't see many Ivy big men with such skills and strength.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-30-24 08:37 AM - Post#366730
In response to Penndemonium
It’s conceivable that what’s happening in college basketball could hasten the inevitable I.e settlement of the Choi suit.
It’s difficult to ascertain whether any of this is even remotely close to top of mind for Ivy Presidents. We don’t even have a new President in place at Penn yet and the interim is managing a school with an academic budget in excess of 5 billion and a total budget in excess of 12 billion.
Just maybe they are not concerned about the same things many of us are.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2140
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-30-24 09:11 AM - Post#366733
In response to Penndemonium
Amen on this.
Someone mentioned Duke. It's true that they don't bring much to football audiences, but they have improved and Dukies seem to be taking hold. I've seen photos from basketball team boosters that are now supporting the football team.
While I have respect for the ACC schools, I hope the conference crumbles because of football. It would indeed serve them right for almost destroying a great basketball conference (the Big East) to help football.
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
The elephant in the room here is the fact that all of the conference realignments and consolidation have been driven by power conference football interests. This is as much of a threat to the college basketball ecosystem as anything. I contend that the NIL issue is a symptom, not the underlying disease.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-30-24 09:11 PM - Post#366754
In response to weinhauers_ghost
There are two segments to college sports. In one big-time revenue from football and basketball fund all the other sports. In the other the universities funds sports.
The two segments are becoming farther and farther apart. My son has been predicting for years now that the big schools will withdraw from the NCAA, not wanting to share their revenue from football and B-ball. I think he is right.
Perhaps the answer will be a collection of organizations for the various sports. In football there will be no interaction. B-ball will, I think look much like today except the Big Guys will control the dance.
As to having an all commers tournament. That already occurs with the exception of the Ivies. The conference tournaments are the early rounds.
Thinking about the transfer rule. I see two issues. The first is the Dingle/Wolf issue. There has been for many years a distinct gap in talent between the majors and the others. This will just increase the difference a little. The other is the player happiness issue that will put much more pressure on coaching to keep their valuable players happy. Those of you on the Eddie Holland bandwagon should be pleased. If SD is unfairly ignoring him he can transfer. Note that he hasn't.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-30-24 09:45 PM - Post#366757
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Completely agree. The economics of football have so outpaced the economics of the other college sports, that football is negatively impacting all the other sports that are now traveling cross country for a conference game. College basketball is beholden to the economic realities of college football, but likely has some input - every other college sport is a taker and marches to football’s beat and basketball’s chorus.
Not that this will ever happen – but the question that should be asked: “If just college football was reorganized today with a clean sheet of paper and one not beholden to conference systems and past traditions, what would be the best system in 2024?”
There are a lot of possibilities of systems that makes more sense, creates more buzz and generates higher revenue than the current model. But likely no broad desire to be thoughtful – until economic reality besets enough schools, and schools have to rethink
What would I do: I would construct an eight tier “English football” division style system. 32 teams in a division and within a division, there are two 16 team conferences that play an 8-8 home and home schedule. Top 8 in each conference play a 16-game post season tournament. As do the bottom 8. There would be some relegation system where bottom 4-8 teams in each subdivision move down and are replaced with the best 4-8 teams from the lower subdivision. Relegation Bowl games would make for great TV. In time each school would find its correct tier.
All other sports can go back to their old more logical regional conferences and act independently of Football.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-31-24 01:05 AM - Post#366759
In response to JDP
We've gone beyond Penn's strategy and Ivy strategy to the broader NCAA issue, which is appropriate - we're all still trying to wrap our heads around that. Penn obviously can't shape the broader issues in isolation, but I suppose it could help lead the Ivies into new ways, a withdrawal from the NCAAs, or a different business model. This should be an MBA project for sure. I suppose if an alumni wanted to make an impact, a different way to support Penn basketball would be to sponsor a Bain type of report on how to navigate this. We have tons of Whartonites out here, right?
The Ivies could take themselves out of the NCAA framework, but right now there isn't enough incentive. Our basketball players like playing a national schedule, Penn gets some tourney money regardless of their performance, and they don't even have to fund scholarships. They get to claim they are playing their own game as the only non-scholarship league, being more true to the student-athlete archetype. They can let the NCAA take the heat on all equity issues with this, except for scholarships.
So how can Penn differentiate itself? One is through a sports management program. If it aligned itself with its many graduates in sports management and ownership, I could see that being a compelling path. I personally know of several Penn graduates that are VERY well placed. There used to be a few professors who had very good reputations in the space. There was a guy in the law school. There was another from Wharton. They could take courses in marketing, contracts, and more. There are multiple professional teams in Philadelphia and the region. There are multiple college basketball teams and the Big 5. There are people in the sports agency business. Penn's communication program would be a great launch into sports journalism and broadcasting. If Penn could pull together such a unique program, it could be the M&T of sports. Play a sport and major in sports management. Enrolling at Penn would have amazing internships ready-made. Imagine interning with Comcast (maybe courtesy of Brian Roberts?).
Now that I think about this, all it would take is some folks to fund a bit of endowment for sports management, and make it highly collaborative with the basketball coach and alumni board.
This program might not be enough to override big cash going to players from major programs, but it could be enough to move it to the upper tier of mid-majors and at least well into the upper half of Div I. The internships could have some pay dynamics that help the payment shortfall.
This is the type of stuff the school and coaches don't always address holistically. How to bring all of the resources of Penn together, financial and non-financial. Penn is an incredible platform, and we are getting beaten out by just playing the same game as everyone else. I realize that the coaches have probably created some of these links, but help create the best sports management program in the country - the one where people in the industry try to recruit student athletes from. They could study law, business, biology, engineering, data science, and communications in an interdisciplinary way.
I realize that not all athletes will want to study this, but I'd imagine they could attract some good ones this way - and not just for basketball or football.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-31-24 05:52 AM - Post#366760
In response to Penndemonium
Add management and leadership to the interdisciplinary studies.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-31-24 04:15 PM - Post#366770
In response to Penndemonium
Penn sports issues outside of basketball:
https://x.com/POPSlockndropit/statu s/1774214276330...
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2140
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-31-24 04:23 PM - Post#366771
In response to JDP
That's irritating.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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04-01-24 12:26 PM - Post#366786
In response to mobrien
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football..
Not that I have insights better than anyone else, but my gut is that FSU, Clemson, and UNC all easily find landing spots. Miami, NC State, and UVA probably will as well.
Everyone else... lots of luck (although Va Tech and Georgia Tech are probably the strongest of the rest).
If the Big 10 and SEC didn't want Stanford (academics) and UConn (basketball), it's hard to see them inviting Duke.
But who knows?
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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04-02-24 10:33 PM - Post#366865
In response to UPIA1968
Those of you on the Eddie Holland bandwagon should be pleased. If SD is unfairly ignoring him he can transfer. Note that he hasn't.
He’s going to give up a Penn degree for the chance at more minutes somewhere else but no shot at pro ball? I know it’s a lot to ask that he doesn’t sit for two weeks…
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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04-03-24 10:07 PM - Post#366943
In response to borschtbelt
Agree. FSU is suing over the fee for departure (or being sued). Clemson wants out. I hear UNC is exploring. I hope these schools realize they all can't be near the top of the SEC with any regularity.I guess the $$ is more important. Wait until they pay the golf team to fly all over the country with clubs
a.) I don't know, given FSU's history and Clemson's recent success, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they can contend in the SEC. As for UNC, they may well be thinking of it in terms of the fate of the basketball team being linked to that of the football team if the same people end up controlling both.
b.) It'll be interesting to see whether they can get out of the ACC contract or not. While it's true that the terms are pretty draconian, it's also true that no one pointed a gun at their head and made them do it; they could have gone to another conference if they had wanted to.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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04-03-24 10:28 PM - Post#366944
In response to mobrien
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football.
I see two big questions after that. The first is whether the Big 12 is able to survive. They've tried to rebound from losing Texas and Oklahoma, but it's not promising. The second is how long the Big East is able to compete with the big boys once the football money becomes even more overwhelming. For now, they've got some of the premier teams in the country, but you have to wonder about UConn looking to leave again and Hurley potentially moving to the SEC or Big 10 if it doesn't (He'd be one of the few people UK would want to follow Cal).
Could easily end up in a situation where the SEC and Big 10 split up the rest of the ACC and Big 12 between them, and the Big East fades to become more like the old A-10, a very good 3 or 4 bid mid-major league. The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
Again, I'm not sure that the ACC contract is going to be easily breakable. That being said, when USC and UCLA announced they were jumping to the Big 10, I immediately thought that if I was Oregon State or Washington State, I would be screaming at the commissioner and the rest of the league every meeting to merge with the Big 12, because if it became a matter of people picking over the carcass, they were going to get left behind. If FSU and Clemson do succeed in getting out of the ACC, I'm advocating exactly the same strategy for Wake and BC, because the same is true for them. I think Brett Yormark has done an incredible job leading the Big 12, given that it was a dead league walking even just a couple of years ago, but if I were him and got an offer like that, I would take it. Particularly if you could keep UNC onside, you'd immediately have the best basketball conference in the country, and you'd have enough football oomph to remain credible, particularly since most of the schools are in growing states. Again, you have to keep as many schools as unified as you can, or else the big boys will just swoop in and rend you limb from limb.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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04-04-24 05:44 AM - Post#366952
In response to dperry
That being said, when USC and UCLA announced they were jumping to the Big 10, I immediately thought that if I was Oregon State or Washington State, I would be screaming at the commissioner and the rest of the league every meeting to merge with the Big 12, because if it became a matter of people picking over the carcass, they were going to get left behind.
Not sure the Big 12 was ever interested in taking on 10 schools. At least I never saw anything indicating that was a realistic option.
But the Pac-12 did put together a TV package with very favorable terms with Apple after USC/UCLA defected. Phil Knight liked it--which would have ensured that Oregon stayed put (and that was half the battle right there).
Unfortunately, Washington didn't have Knight's foresight. They panicked and jumped ship. After that... the Pac-12 breakup was inevitable.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32839
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-04-24 08:14 AM - Post#366955
In response to dperry
You mention BC. For the former Big East schools whose basketball programs have all tanked since they joined the ACC (Syracuse and Pitt and Louisville too), nothing would be better than to see the ACC blow up and a true Eastern all-sports conference could be formed--too late for UConn though). With Delaware moving up and James Madison already there, bring in Buffalo and UMass and you have a full conference to get a TV contract. They won't compete with the SEC and Big 10 (20) but they'll do much better than in the ACC, where they all have sucked in both football and basketball.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3587
Reg: 02-15-15
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04-16-24 01:43 PM - Post#367473
In response to Penndemonium
With the changing landscape in college sports, I suspect there is a silver lining. High School athletes are now down to 4th on the recruiting priority list for current college programs. Coaches now have to spend significant time recruiting the following, in order:
1. Your own players
2. Portal
3. Prep Schools
4. HS Seniors
As a result, there are going to be more Danny Wolf, Malick Mack, Tyler Perkins types available for IL programs as HS players slip through. The downside is, they have to figure out how to keep them once they get them as they quickly move up to #2 if they are good. The Ivy League may give new meaning to "one and done".
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