palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32837
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-16-24 01:55 PM - Post#367476
In response to PennFan10
...which is why the Ivies, if they wish to remain Division 1 level teams, must offer athletic scholarships. Free Ivy education gives us a much better chance of keeping players and frankly, the way financial aid is increasingly being used as a de facto scholarship, just end the fiction.
|
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
|
04-16-24 04:46 PM - Post#367484
In response to palestra38
I agree with you about scholarships. But I think the chances of convincing the Presidents is closer to none than slim.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
|
04-16-24 07:11 PM - Post#367489
In response to PennFan10
This is why I’ve argued for leaning into this and even acknowledging that the Ivy can be a springboard to a high major NIL deal. Go for more Wolfs instead of less. Don’t be afraid of transfers. Aim even higher.
|
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3778
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
|
04-17-24 04:52 PM - Post#367550
In response to SomeGuy
It's an interesting idea, but brings up this question: how would you pitch this to an Ivy president? How does the institution as a whole benefit from this, and how do we mitigate the risks?
|
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-17-24 10:24 PM - Post#367553
In response to PennFan10
I get the logic to this, but it only works if you know, we actually have good recruiters. We frankly don't. And we've especially failed when landing higher profile targets.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
|
04-17-24 11:20 PM - Post#367554
In response to Mike Porter
Well, at this point we have a pretty good track record of launching transfer players...
But I agree that I can't see the Ivy presidents being excited about one-and done rentals for pretty scarce admissions slots.
I get the logic to this, but it only works if you know, we actually have good recruiters. We frankly don't. And we've especially failed when landing higher profile targets.
|
CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
|
04-18-24 07:50 AM - Post#367558
In response to SomeGuy
Listen, and I speak from recent experience, this is simply not how kids coming out of high school think. And even if they did, why the hell would they choose one of the 8 D1 schools that they her to pay for to attend for a year or two?
I'm not sure you understand just how under resourced the Ivy basketball programs are compared to other mid majors. The absolute ONLY reason a kid will choose an Ivy is for the degree they get at the end of the four years. And if you're planning on leaving anyway then the degree part isn't an allure anyway.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
|
04-20-24 09:14 AM - Post#367613
In response to CM
Well, we have some pretty good evidence that kids are already thinking that way. Understand that I’m not arguing for the no scholarships policy. I’m just assuming scholarships are off the table. I totally agree that scholarships would enable us to compete for recruits a lot better than my idea. I just don’t think there is any chance of that happening.
In regard to how kids are thinking, I think Perkins’ interview the other day gives you a pretty good indicator. They’re all in where they are, until they’re all in somewhere else. And it appears kids aren’t burning bridges with their former teams — everybody knows this is the landscape now. Yes, the degree still will keep some kids around for 4 years regardless of NIL, and that is why I think it is good to get the best players you can in the door. Some of them will see the value and reward the faith in them by staying. If as a program you emphasize that you are all in for what is best for the player/student, even if that means transferring somewhere else, you may find that kids who have opportunities elsewhere stick around.
As to the question of how the Presidents (or admissions) see basketball transfers generally, I doubt they care.
|
CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
|
04-20-24 10:21 AM - Post#367615
In response to SomeGuy
So what is the pitch, exactly? Where is the hook?
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
|
04-20-24 12:51 PM - Post#367619
In response to CM
The hook is that, if you’re Jared Wolf, you get a much bigger NIL deal out of a Michigan if you are an upperclassman coming off a dominant season at Penn. So the pitch is that you can come in and dominate, and make more NIL money in the end. Or, if the NIL deal isn’t out there for you down the line, you still get the Ivy degree. Player wins either way. That’s the pitch to higher level recruits than we are getting. For the Dingles and Perkins of the world, the pitch is the same, only in the absence of big school offers. Come to Penn, showcase yourself for a year or two, and then get the high major offer that wasn’t there when you were coming out of high school. I’m sure we already make the big fish in a small pond pitch to guys, and the fact that we let Dingle and Slajchert play that way may appeal now to guys who want to showcase.
|
CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
|
04-21-24 08:06 AM - Post#367645
In response to SomeGuy
Come to Penn - where you/your parents have to cut checks every semester, you have to take super hard classes, you have no chance to get any NIL money, you travel on busses and fly commercial instead of charter - all so you can transfer in a couple years to a better program? Do I have that right?
|
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3778
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
|
04-21-24 09:38 AM - Post#367649
In response to SomeGuy
As to the question of how the Presidents (or admissions) see basketball transfers generally, I doubt they care.
Exactly. They don't care, because they have no reason to care. The Ivies differ from many (probably the majority) of universities in D1 in that success in intercollegiate sports isn't essential to the fundamental health of the institution. As far as I can tell, there are only two things that would make them care: 1) if, for some reason, a specific sports program becomes a genuine embarrassment to the institution or 2) if a group of alumni that is sufficiently large, sufficiently wealthy and sufficiently generous becomes sufficiently strident about a specific program that the president has to take them seriously. Otherwise, we're stuck with the status quo for the foreseeable future.
|
Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
|
04-21-24 09:52 AM - Post#367650
In response to Silver Maple
So if the Ivies don't care, then why not downsize to DIII, save a few bucks, and spare us the humiliation of seeing our teams wither? That's what I don't understand.
|
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3778
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
|
04-21-24 10:29 AM - Post#367651
In response to Penn90
If athletics become enough of an embarrassment or enough of an issue for the wealthy alumni, and the presidents feel unwilling to do what it will take to get more competitive at the D1 level, the presidents will probably make the decision to drop down. Until then, they're going to focus on more pressing issues, and devote no thought whatsoever to varsity sports.
|
CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
|
04-21-24 11:18 AM - Post#367654
In response to Penn90
Because for the longest time Ivy presidents/ADs have been able to cherry pick some of their teams doing well as proof that their concept of the balance between academics/non-scholarship sports is sustainable at the D1 level. All while essentially treating the athletes themselves like D3 athletes. Well, that is no longer possible, yet most of the administrative body chooses to ignore or is oblivious the new reality.
I admit into evidence.... https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/4/8/mcde rm...
|
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1891
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-21-24 11:25 AM - Post#367655
In response to Silver Maple
You Penn guys are living in a different world than I am. The Ivies have won three games in the NCAA tournament over the last two years and the league’s ranking within Division I was the highest it’s been in many years, with three teams in the top 100. The Ivy tournament sold out its games and several regular season games sold out as well. Portal jumping is a phenomenon EVERYWHERE in college ball, certainly not an Ivy phenomenon (Dook has lost 7 players this year).
Where is the embarrassment?
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-21-24 01:10 PM - Post#367657
In response to TigerFan
That was then. This is now.
Quaker fans are more downbeat for obvious reasons, but that does not change the new IVY reality. The Tiger culture may delay the impact on you all for a bit, but you will start seeing your high-end undergrads transfer out soon enough to feel our pain.
|
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1891
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Let's brainstorm a plan
04-21-24 02:04 PM - Post#367659
In response to Streamers
Maybe. I agree that its brutal to see some of the best Ivy players jumping into the portal but if the P-6 and high-spending mid-major teams reload with transfers instead of first-year players, its possible that Ivies hold their own in recruiting HS kids.
I don't see the Ivies offering athletic scholarships and have posted elsewhere that for some of the Ivies at least, this has become less of an issue as financial aid programs have become increasingly robust. Students at Princeton now get full packages if their household income is less than $100k and even at $150k they are only paying $12,500. Even families making $300,000 get $15k sliced off the cost!
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/education/pr...
Edited by TigerFan on 04-21-24 02:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-21-24 04:11 PM - Post#367661
In response to TigerFan
PU aid is extraordinarily generous even by ivy standards. But we are competing with FREE and the opportunity to play a better schedule with more exposure and the NIL that goes with it. Sure we may still get some good HS kids but keeping them will be hard and that will hurt the kind of continuity that has often been the secret sauce for mid majors.
|
umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 476
Reg: 11-21-04
|
04-21-24 09:07 PM - Post#367666
In response to Streamers
Scholarships are off the table, in all likelihood, but I think adjusting the aid formula to exempt NIL (or other student income) from the calculation might be feasible.
|
