Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-29-24 12:05 PM - Post#366671
Back in the golden age, when I was an undergraduate, the ivies used to have freshman teams. It occurred to me that if we returned to fielding freshman teams with players ineligible for varsity play , at least in football and basketball,, we might develop an effective strategy for attracting and holding high profile student athletes until they receive their degrees at which time they would still have a year of eligibility and a chance to cash in on a lucrative NIL by entering the transfer portal. Also, if they were receiving financial aid, it would not be lost until after they received NIL $. If my understanding is correct, a player could play varsity for 3 years and possibly even practice with the varsity team during his/her freshman year.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 12:29 PM - Post#366672
In response to Tiger69
Interesting idea. But basketball players want to play basketball. Basically building a redshirt year into every Ivy player's experience would make recruiting effectively impossible. Imagine trying convince a high school kid they'd have to sit out a year of playing competitive basketball if they came to your school (and have to pay tuition on top of it).
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 02:53 PM - Post#366681
In response to CM
Ivies form a freshmen league or play as JVs while practicing with Varsity. Few freshmen get more than garbage time now. If they worked with Varsity in practice the step up as sophs would be much easier. Some might even be ready for meaningful game time by then.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 02:57 PM - Post#366682
In response to Tiger69
Man, you're old. This was a bad idea when posted on the Penn Board. No one will want to go to schools that don't let them play as freshmen, especially with no scholarships. There's a reason we got rid of freshman ineligibility in 1977---it was outdated then. Not a good idea to bring it back in a vain attempt to let players graduate and play another year.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 03:00 PM - Post#366683
In response to CM
I have wondered about recruiting to a Boudreaux scenario though. Graduate in 3 and then go play elsewhere. Try to sell kids on a world where they can have it all. Get the Ivy degree, be a big fish in a small basketball pond for a couple of years, then get a big NIL deal and play big time college basketball for a year or two.
We’re not going to get talented enough players to compete nationally with one and done kids (one Malik Mack or Tyler Perkins wasn’t enough for that). But we might be able to compete if we have those types of talents for 2-3 years.
For better or worse, the combination of Covid, Ivy grad rules, and the transfer portal led to a full cycle of kids who got to do both, and now you have kids behind them who saw older teammates do both. Natural that that might lead to more kids wanting to transfer and play at a higher level.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 04:37 PM - Post#366687
In response to palestra38
True that. 77 in May.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 476
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-24 06:34 PM - Post#366704
In response to Tiger69
Let me try to understand the thinking behind the one and done players. While I would think that they already made a decision about the value of the degree - maybe the degree is viewed as a hedge? They feel they are undervalued out of high school - they get to go Ivy and get to play far more than they might as a high major, they can increase their value and cash in with NIL - if they get hurt, or otherwise don't excel at the next level they have the Ivy degree and hoops to fall back on.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3674
Reg: 02-06-10
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Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 08:56 PM - Post#366719
In response to umbrellaman
If athletic scholarships are out of the question, then NIL money could at least be excluded from financial aid calculations. No need to punish kids for being good enough to earn NIL money.
I don't think the Ivies will ever engage in NIL payments via "booster collectives," which sound like a dark money slush fund. And these funds might be shut down by the NCAA/feds anyway.
But I fully support students-athletes being able to earn NIL money through things like sponsorships and social media promotions.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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Ivy NIL strategy?
03-29-24 09:47 PM - Post#366724
In response to gokinsmen
The Ivy freshman team requirement is often cited as the reason Gene Banks went to Duke over Penn in 1977 – because basketball players do want to play basketball – and Quakers fans wonder just how good those team could have been.
If you have a high school student athlete who was very sure they wanted to earn a graduate degree directly after undergrad and wanted to avoid paying the higher grad school costs, then I could see a scheme where the player “redshirted” as a freshman, played three years and then used both their basketball skills and Ivy degree to gain entrance into their desired graduate school. How many kids fit this mold? And I am also not sure the Ivy League rules allows a player to “redshirt” for other than medical reasons. – so not sure how a self imposed “redshirt” year would impact the 4 athletic years over 5 academic years.
Nor do I believe it would help the outflow from the Ivies with effectively $0 NIL, or any school, when a player is offered a higher NIL by another school at the end of every year.
As many have mentioned, the practical reality of current Ivy need based aid is that the after-tax revenue a student-athlete earns goes $ for $ to reduce financial aid. Same with third-party scholarships. If you do not think you will earn more than your financial aid award, why expend the energy?. Not sure why there is no sharing of the benefit, there is little incentive for the student with a lot of financial aid to lift a finger to earn more money.
But if Princeton can exclude a family’s “primary vacation housing” as an asset, no legal reason preventing a school from excluding NIL income as an asset in the financial aid formula, or only count part. The 1992 ish era financial aid collusion ruling would certainly prohibit the Ivy League from dictating a conference level rule on how to calculate financial aid. So the issue of NIL in the financial aid formula is solvable at the institutional level, the institution just has to want to provide the NIL benefit to its student athletes.
Edited by JDP on 03-29-24 09:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 11:53 AM - Post#366736
In response to JDP
Thanks for the background, JDP, particularly the Banks decision to go to Dook over Penn many moons ago. Now I know why Palestra38 bristled at my suggestion that a prospect might be willing to defer Varsity play for a year. I am not very knowledgeable of the evolution of eligibility regulations and I rarely pay an an unwelcome visit over to the Penn boards.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 11:59 AM - Post#366737
In response to Tiger69
Stay healthy---67 next month. Don't see too many 20s and 30s here.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 12:32 PM - Post#366739
In response to SomeGuy
So you're saying dangling the 'chance' to do 4 years of Ivy education 3 would be an incentive? That is. Insane. Being in college is fun, doing a college sport with your classmates is super fun.
Boudreaux was only able to do it because he didn't play his 3rd year at Dartmouth (and had summer quarter through the D plan).
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2276
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 12:33 PM - Post#366740
In response to gokinsmen
If athletic scholarships are out of the question, then NIL money could at least be excluded from financial aid calculations. No need to punish kids for being good enough to earn NIL money.
Hmmm. Not sure the institutions would endorse that idea. Give the athlete aid while he collects money from an outside source.
I would think any Ivy NIL package (should such an entity come to exist) would cover tuition, room, & board FIRST, and the remainder to the athlete.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 12:34 PM - Post#366741
In response to gokinsmen
Listen, as long as scholarships are off the table everything else is noise. Read some of the cockamammy ideas people are floating. It's ridiculous. If the Ivys don't start offering athletic scholarships they'll effectively be D3 within a decade.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 12:36 PM - Post#366742
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
So the NIL is actually for the school's coffers. This unreal. Sports recruits are no imbeciles. The current model is clearly unsustainable, and probably has been for some while.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1891
Reg: 11-21-04
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Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 02:26 PM - Post#366744
In response to CM
CM, it may be time for you to pick your favorite Power-5 conference team and move on. I just don't see Ivy League institutions fundamentally changing how they provide financial aid. Nor do I think they should!
As much as I will always harbor dreams of the Tigers reliving the 1998 team's national rankings and exposure and the 2023 teams incredible run to the Sweet Sixteen (or why not the Final Four?!), what made those years magical to me was the "against all odds," (no scholarships!), nature of the run.
I also suggest that folks take a peek at your favorite Ivy's online Financial Aid Estimator and play with the numbers a little before making assertions about the impact that NIL would have on financial aid packages. You might be surprised with how generous the packages are these days and how much a high-performing athlete could "net" on NIL vs. Financial Aid.
Princeton now provides 100% financial aid coverage (entirely with grants, not loans) for families with parent's AGI up to $100,000. According to my review of the online estimator, a student making $50k (from NIL or any other source) from a family with parental AGI at $100k and $50k in non-retirement investments would lose $8,000 off their financial aid package (netting $42k). A student earning $100k from NIL (or any other source) from such afamily would lose $21k of their financial aid package (netting $79k).
Students at Princeton with parental AGI of $150k and $50k in non-retirement investments now only pay $15k to attend Princeton. A student earning $100k through NIL (or any other source), with such parents would only lose about $30k of financial aid (netting up around $70k).
I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the impact of NIL would diminish with increasing family income about $150k.
Will Ivy players secure those kinds of NIL payments? I don't know (although there are rumors on the always dependable internet machine that X. Lee may have a big deal). My point is that if such offers are to be had, such funds won't all be offset by reduced financial aid.
Call me Pollyanna, but I don't think the world is coming to an end. The Ivy League ranked out as the #12 highest rated conference for men's basketball in 2023-24--one of the best performances in YEARS. I don't see the league suddenly plunging to D3 any time soon.
Go Tigers!
Edited by TigerFan on 03-30-24 02:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 03:54 PM - Post#366745
In response to CM
Well, I have wondered whether it has been part of the pitch at Harvard in the past. Pre-Covid They seemed to have guys who had unexplained injuries and then wereable to play a year as a grad student. It happened with enough guys that I started to wonder whether they were actually encouraging the practice to get better players. Not sure it’s just Boudreaux graduating early. Did Dingle graduate? There was a suggestion at one point that he was able to finish up before transferring. But the injury redshirt path is certainly more common. I’m just wondering if being a little less afraid of losing transfers should be part of the approach. Everyone is losing them now. It’s not just an Ivy problem. Like everyone else, I am just trying to think of ways to adjust to the new environment. I think that some of our views are a little stuck in the past. Yes, it’s fun to be part of a team for 4 years — but we may be focusing on that perspective because we remember when that was what just about everyone did. Increasingly that is not the norm.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 05:09 PM - Post#366746
In response to TigerFan
I do not expect the Ivies to change. Physics 101: An object at rest, stays at rest. The Ivies need a strong external influence to change their beliefs. The 1992ish era financial aid collusion decision is one such event. Why I hold out the scholarship lawsuit as the only external influence that could bring about change – anything else anyone can name that would have the Ivy Presidents do anything differently than they have done for decades? The Dartmouth Union, unlikely.
I also do not expect any Ivy to eliminate the NIL as an asset in the financial aid formula. But if an Ivy wanted to make such a change, it’s an institution level decision outside of the Ivy League rules.
To TigerFan's point. One should look at the Financial Aid calculators. When asked why Harvard and Princeton have won 2x the amount of Ivy Titles (nearly 50%) than their expectations, Financial Aid is a first order impact.
Why? All things equal, after considering financial aid, head-to-head Harvard and Princeton are no more expensive than any other Ivy and in many case, materially less expensive.
Middle class Student Athlete whose parents own a home applies to Penn & Princeton, which school do you believe will deliver the better aid package?
For Princeton “Assets do not include retirement holdings or primary residence. Assets do include non-retirement investments, 529 plan college savings, student assets and investments, non-primary vacation housing and other homes.”
For Penn home equity is included from residence and primary vacation home. “Typical assets can be defined as having a relative amount in cash and/or savings, checking, and investments. Assets also include home equity (the value of your primary home), other real estate equity owned by your immediate family (secondary to your primary home), and business equity (the value of a business owned by your parents).
Conceptually I have no arguments with Princeton’s approach – they are using the institutional resourses to attract the best students including student-athletes.
From a conference perspective, however, the Ivy Conference is not a level playing field. Some schools have the financial aid budgets of the New York Yankees, some the Oakland As or Pittsburgh Pirates – and on the field results are not unexpected.
Before NIL, before scholarships, I would look for the Ivies (not holding breath) to return to the league wide equality properties that were core to the League’s founding principles.
TigerFans, back when I was at the mercy of the Penn Financial aid formula – the expectation was that 100% of what a student earns should be applied to college costs – so 100% of after tax NIL revenue would reduce the financial aid $ for after tax NIL $.
I also do think about how the NIL portal realities will change a coaches’ approach to recruiting. Now every player will need portal and NIL impact score. Do you recruit the overlooked student athlete who could blow up and go free agent or opt for someone who is highly likely to make commencement services? Or will we become a conference of wealthy family student athlete who are only swayed by high 6 digit / 7 digit NIL and a class of student athletes that do not command high mid major or Power 5 NIL?
Edited by JDP on 03-30-24 05:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-30-24 06:23 PM - Post#366747
In response to JDP
Hi JDP
Could you comment on my response below. This is from the perspective of a Princeton guy.
Lee and Tosan were offered only by Princeton. It's not like Princeton has been out recruiting Harvard and Yale. MH has been finding and developing hidden high school gems. So far MH's players have been incredibly loyal. So I am not sure how much your post impacts Princeton's program
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1891
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy NIL strategy?
03-30-24 06:52 PM - Post#366748
In response to JDP
Good points, JDP. As a parent of a recent Princeton graduate, I can attest to the University's incredible Financial Aid program. Paid a lot less for child to attend Princeton than would have paid to attend Rutgers as state residents. Child #1 attended a high ranking non-Ivy private school--received a very nice merit-based package but nowhere near Princeton's need-based package for child #2. And Princeton's package just gets better and better every year. I'm sure FA is a HUGE selling point to recruited athletes. (I actually didn't know that aid wasn't reduced 1:1 with student income until I ran the numbers on the on-line FA estimator).
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