foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
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03-18-06 12:58 PM - Post#18331
1) It's very hard to compete at the top with only 2 (2.5 if Oz was on) offensive options.
2) Grandieri should start and Whitehurst should come off the bench to provide instant defense. If he's hot, he stays in, if not back comes Grandieri.
3) It's very hard to compete anywhere if you can only go 6 deep. Pettinella was missed.
4) The end of the Ivy season is a killer with such a shallow bench. Last night's performance was in marked contrast to the dead legged performances against Harvard, Yale Brown and Princeton.
5) Thank God there is no Ivy tournament. It would have looked the spring dance in a nursing home and we probably would have lost.
6) Lack of size and bulk puts too much pressure on the outside game against non League competition. Pettinella would have helped here too.
7) Ibby may not be the best Penn player I have ever seen, but he is the most valuable to his team.
8) You have to run the League table and win one game against a top 50 to get a 14 or maybe even a 13 seed. Despite last night's good effort, 15 is too high a hurdle. You also need some ooc help from the other Ivies who were uniformly putrid this year.
9) You can't, you mustn't ever loose to Columbia.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8331
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 01:16 PM - Post#18332
In response to foehi
I agree with everything except your point about seeding. Yes, a cleaner record would have helped avoid the Longhorns. In reality, though, as Jake has pointed out, even 14-0 would not have gotten us a 13, in all likelihood. This was a VERY unusual year, and all of the upsets prove that.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 01:20 PM - Post#18333
In response to foehi
Agree on all points and on espn online there ia an interesting piece on the common thread of teams who were upset in the 1st round being that they played for their conference tournament titles (iowa, kansas, syracuse, etc.). How a tourney would have helped prepare us is beyond me. We are some size (Lewis, Votel, frosh) and an outside threat (McMahon, Smith, anyone) away from competing with anyone next year.
Also, on point two I think Whitehurst is on the floor due to his defense. While I would like to see him get his confidence back on offense and think he may have to head towards the basket to do so, I would not want to mess with our perimeter defense by changing the rotation. The question for next year is who gets the Oz and Free minutes?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 01:53 PM - Post#18334
In response to 91Quake
Here here. Perimeter defense is a big part of why we were in that game for so long last night. I thought Whitehurst was a big part of that. Of course, we won't have to worry about who should start next year, because both guys will.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 04:33 PM - Post#18335
In response to SomeGuy
Absolutely. Whitehurst's defense cannot be overlooked. He and Ibby are as close to a pair of lockdown guards we've seen in these parts in a long time.
That being said, I am extremely impressed and admittedly a little surprised at Grandieri's game. The kid can ball.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 04:40 PM - Post#18336
In response to Buckeye Quake
penn pal, i've heard some people say that whitehurst's defense in the last month or so has been indifferent or he'll take the occasional series off. Have you seen that?
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 05:16 PM - Post#18337
In response to Jeff2sf
Definitly didn't happen last night. He played Tucker extremely well, and most of Tucker's offense actually happened when Grandieri was guarding him (or, attempting to guard him).
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Anonymous
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 06:09 PM - Post#18338
In response to SFlaQuaker
When you look at the numbers the Texas guards put up last night it gives you every reason in the world to be excited about next year. I have never seen a Penn team with such great perimeter defense and it allows them to compete with almost any team. Develop another shooter and look out.
You got to love the world getting a chance to see what Grandieri can do. The announcers were totally baffled when he went in amongst the trees and grabbed that o-board. Get ready for 3 more years of that.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 06:49 PM - Post#18339
In response to
Absolutely, though I think we'll miss Oz on the defensive end. When Whitehurst, Ibby, and Oz were all healthy and interested, there was no weak link out there defensively. Grandieri seems to me to be more of a Begley type defensively -- a guy whose feel for the game will allow him to battle and make some big plays on defense, but who won't be able to consistently lock somebody down. In terms of offense and rebounding, we should be fine with Grandieri. Loved seeing him hit those open 3s last night, too.
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dpostm92
Senior
Posts: 326
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 07:17 PM - Post#18340
In response to foehi
Re seeding: historically, Penn has been seeded between 11-13 even without running the table in league. The difference has been that the losses weren't as bad as this year's. So, to say that Penn must go undefeated to avoid a 15 seed is inaccurate.
But Penn usually mixes a better win or two than Hawaii into the equation, and that's what they needed to do this year.
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foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 07:25 PM - Post#18341
In response to dpostm92
Wasn't what I said. I said run the League table and beat a top 50 (RPI) team
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Ron Mexico
goober
Posts: 80
Reg: 04-11-05
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 07:33 PM - Post#18342
In response to foehi
You mean like Bucknell did this year when it got a 9 seed?
If you think a 14-0 and a top 50 win only gets you a 13 or 14 seed in the tourney, you're smoking some real sticky icky.
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Anonymous
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 08:02 PM - Post#18343
In response to SomeGuy
I'll gladly give up a little on defense if we end up with more options (and more consistent options) on offense.
As far as the year being the "peak" of the cycle...as I've said before I don't understand that at all. Three starters returning as seniors including the two best players on the team is about as good as a cycle gets.
I don't know how much more Z can contribute, but his outside shooting may still improve more. Biggest improvement is going to come from Ibby, I think he can and will be a dominant force on the court against all, but a few, of Penn's opponents. Whether Penn can improve enough to make some noise next year will depend alot on this year's freshmen and next year's entering class. Real killer for the team is the weak sophomore class. If that group had been as strong as the Jaaber/Zoller/Danley/Pettinella group next year could have been pretty amazing.
FWIW, losing Ryan really did hurt Penn. In a game like yesterday he wouldn't have been afraid to put some stuff up inside, and probably would have drawn some fouls on key guys, along with scoring some points (and of course missed the FT's).
All the praise thrown at Dunphy is interesting. I thought he certainly did one of his best jobs of coaching this year, but still fell into the shrinking bench mode that has been his pattern.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 08:09 PM - Post#18344
In response to SFlaQuaker
First, I'm not saying he does or doesn't. I haven't seen enough of the last 6 games. I also know he didn't LAST night. The criticism was that he was taking possessions off during the ivy year.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 08:52 PM - Post#18345
In response to Jeff2sf
Am I the only one who thinks that Zoller leaving to get his ankle taped was a blessing in disguise? I thought it kept him out of foul trouble and fresh.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-18-06 09:31 PM - Post#18346
In response to Jeff2sf
I wasn't arguing w/ you Jeff so much as adding an additional point. He did seem to lose focus at times this season, and last night showed that when he remains focused he can guard anyone in the nation. It's the same problem that alot of college players have, especially on defense. It's easy to put up your best effort against Tucker or Kyle Lowry (who was also shut down), but you need to bring that effort against the Yale's and Columbia's of the world too.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-19-06 12:55 AM - Post#18347
In response to
Not sure I agree that the sophomore class was weak. Had Kach not decided to give up basketball you would be looking at three very good guards: Whitehurst, Kach, and Grandieri. With Kach's departure and Gill mostly relegated to the bench, only two juniors will be playing but they will be on the court often making up 2/3's of our likely three guard set. It would have been nice if we had a 6'8" type player with that class, but we can't win them all.
I know there is little point to ponder what if's, but imagine how the team could have looked this year with Kach and Pettinella also in the rotation.
Quote:
Real killer for the team is the weak sophomore class. If that group had been as strong as the Jaaber/Zoller/Danley/Pettinella group next year could have been pretty amazing.
quote]
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-19-06 02:05 PM - Post#18348
In response to Mike Porter
Quote:
I know there is little point to ponder what if's, but imagine how the team could have looked this year with Kach and Pettinella also in the rotation.
I am not certain we can speculate too much on what Kach might have meant to the team. He would probably have played instead of Whitehurst, which probably means better offense but less defense. It might have been a wash.
Pett is a more interesting question. The net result had he stayed:
1. Danley probably would have been healthier and more aggressive in his play.
2. We probably would have gone 14-0 in the Ivy’s.
3. We might have won one or two of the non-conference games we lost.
4. I think it is a good bet that we would have had a higher seed as a result of our better record.
5. Against top ten teams I do not believe he would have helped that much unless his defense and FT shooting have improved. E.g., I think Pett would have had more trouble defending against LA than Danley or Zoller. Also, as good as his post moves are, I think he would have had trouble scoring against LA. Further, just watching him shoot FT’s is a momentum killer. Last year against BC his airball at the line followed by a clank took all the air out of our mini-comeback.
6. Hence, the biggest question in my mind is how much better we play against (take the best scenario for our season record) against a 6th seed. That means we would have played WVU, Indiana, Michigan St, or Oklahoma. I am not certain that the outcome would have been different against these teams with or without Pett.
Looking back on the season, I thought this was one of the better teams in recent years contrary to statements otherwise. I do not believe any of our last five teams would have fared as well against the 3 top ten teams we played.
Looking ahead, let’s hope that Whitehurst gains confidence in his shot, McMahon is healthy, shoots lights out, and plays good D, and that one or two of Schreiber, Lewis, Votel, or Reilly can contribute next year. It will also be interesting to see what Smith and Egee will be able to do. Also, let’s hope that Dunphy comes back. I would hate to experience anything close to what PU has had to endure. With some hard work and luck, this could be our best team in 15 years.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-19-06 03:36 PM - Post#18349
In response to Condor
2-5 are all guesses. I just can't agree with 1 though. Danley still would've gotten most of the minutes at center. The concussion and broken nose would most likely still have happened. They weren't injuries that resulted from too much playing time, they resulted from isolated incidents with in games.
Granted, once he was hurt, we would've had a more traditional big man backing him up...but it's not like anyone forced the kid to leave. He (and aparently his father) thought he was being treated unfairly, he left, and that's that.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-19-06 04:25 PM - Post#18350
In response to SFlaQuaker
Actually, 1 is also a guess.
On 1, your point is well taken. However, a tired player is more apt to get hurt than one that is not. So, you never know what would have happened. At the very least, we would have had someone more experienced to play center when Danley could not.
On 2, Zoller fouled out after 28 min in the Columbia loss. Danley and Zoller both fouled out in the PU loss. I do not think that Ben gets that tip if Pett is available in the Columbia game. More importantly, they probably are not close enough for it to make a difference. Further, those tough games against Harvard, Yale, and Brown might not have been so tough. Then perhaps Penn does not come out dead against PU. Anyway, I think we are 14-0 with Pett.
Yes, all this is pure speculation, but with so many others on the board stating that we would have been much better off with Pett, I thought it might be interesting to drill down a bit on what might have been. That said, I can’t really argue with your final comment
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Anonymous
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Re: Lessons Learned
03-20-06 02:49 PM - Post#18351
In response to Condor
When he left, Dunphy was quoted that Pettinella would have played 20-30 minutes/game. Certainly would have had 10 each of Zoller & Danley's time. With a third big man with some skills, we still lose to Colorado, Duke & Nova, but should win most of St.Joes, Temple, Fordham, Columbia & Princeton. That would have meant a 13 or 14 seed, but I don't know that we do better than we did against Texas. That effort was impressive. This was far from the most talented Penn team of the last seven years, but very probably the toughest & most resilient team.
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