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Username Post: A shameful admission        (Topic#288)
Anonymous 

12-21-04 05:33 PM - Post#1442    

I watched the Princeton - Temple game last night and, as the Tigers made their comeback in the closing minutes, I must admit I found myself rooting for Temple. I tried to convince myself that it was because it was Chaney's 1000 game, but after a few moments of painless reflectiion, I was forced to confront a deeply supressed secret; I like it when Princeton loses! Now I know this goes against the grain in this Board. The PC thing to do is to root for all Ivy teams against non-league opponants, I just can't do it! Perhaps it the Festivus Spirit encouraging me to bring my grievences out of the Den, but I like it when Penn loses, too. My initial analysis was that my anti-P feelings were in reaction to the P's domination of both league play and usage on this Board, but I also realized that I was pleased that Cornell and Dartmouth also lost last night. I now openly admit that I wish ill on all of Brown's opponants, at least until after we play them. Please spare me the RPI arguements, I just don't care! I will agree to root for whichever Ivy team earns its way into NCAA Tourney play. Until then, don't expect me to bemoan any calls of last second goal tends (it looked pretty close to me!), I've seen many worse call agaist us at Jadwin and the Palestra. Why just recently "we took it up our *!#s".

 
The Lion King 
Senior
Posts: 394

Reg: 11-21-04
there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-21-04 05:54 PM - Post#1443    
    In response to

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We're competing against our fellow Ivy League schools for recruits, and having a good team is a recruiting advantage. So when one team loses a non-league game, it's good for the other seven. Furthermore, if winning builds confidence and losing destroys it, that's another reason to root for the rest of the league to lose.

So it makes sense from the standpoint of self-interest, except perhaps if you root for Penn or Princeton and have delusions that your school could someday become a national power if it just got a little help with the RPI. But being a sports fan is not based on rational considerations; it's inherently irrational. And for a lot of people, it's a purer form of faith to root against your rivals unconditionally instead of going back and forth. There's nothing wrong with that.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-21-04 06:17 PM - Post#1444    
    In response to The Lion King

Well, maybe my outlook is different because I'm a Penn fan. In my mind, it helps the league from all angles when teams win. I hate Princeton more than any other team in any sport, but I was still rooting for them last night. Maybe it helps recruiting when the other teams lose, but it also helps when the overall league standing is higher. I don't at all blame anyone for rooting against the P's or any ivy for that matter. As for me, I root for Princeton in games like last night because I love Penn, not because I like Princeton in any way.

 
Bruno 
PhD Student
Posts: 1414

Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-21-04 07:21 PM - Post#1445    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

Old Bear, I hear you. Conflicting emotions watching games like Temple-PU happen.

I think I speak for all of us when I say that I like it when Penn loses... to a league team. I generally root for them against big time conference foes, and always root for any Ivy in a pre or post-season tournament.

Now, I grew up in Princeton, and while I don't really like Princeton much either, it for some reason doesn't bother me as much when Princeton wins the league as when Penn does. This may be due to my personal experiences with the Penn fan base.

Of the people I've known personally who have gone to Penn an rooted for Penn, I've found most of them to be a collection of pompous fan freaks who, unlike the fans I know at other Ivies, have never played a team sport before in their lives. I mean - it's remarkable. I'm thinking of 20 or so peers that I know from Penn who are big Quaker boosters -- and all of them, to a man (and, in one case, a woman), talk trash in a way that really, really rubs me the wrong way. It's felt more personal coming from them, in my experience. And to a man, none of them are athletic, and none have played team sports before.

And maybe that's why their taunts have carried an extra bit of ketchup -- because it's as if Penn's performance is THEIR one athletic accomplishment, almost like they achieved it themselves, and that this was finally their athletic moment.

So, for me, it has less to do with the team or school or players, and more to do with my personal experience with the fan base.

Note I'm not commenting on any of the Penn fans on this board, none of whom I know personally. I'm commenting on my personal experience.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: A shameful admission
12-21-04 10:27 PM - Post#1446    
    In response to

I would never hold it against you. I think it's completely understandable.

In fact, I'll probably root against Brown when they get a basketball team, too......;)

 
P04 
newbie
Posts: 3

Reg: 12-21-04
Re: A shameful admission
12-21-04 11:45 PM - Post#1447    
    In response to sparman

What about this scenario:

If Penn was eliminated from Ivy League championship contention, would Penn fans rather Princeton win it or any other Ivy?

Likewise, if Princeton was eliminated from Ivy contention, would Princeton fans rather Penn win it or any other Ivy?

As a Princeton fan, I would root for Penn to win the Ivy over other Ivy teams if Princeton was eliminated from contention. I'd rather keep the championship between the two schools and keep that long reign of Penn or Princeton going. Any other Penn or Princeton fans in agreement with me, or am I just nutty?

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: A shameful admission
12-21-04 11:58 PM - Post#1448    
    In response to P04

I'm with you. Also, Princeton almost always has a better chance of winning a tourney game, both because of talent and style of play.

 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: A shameful admission
12-22-04 02:13 PM - Post#1449    
    In response to P04

I always root for the underdog, except when my team is the favorite or when I believe it would help my team for the favorite to win. In the tournament, rooting for the underdog always means rooting for the Ivy team.

I don't worry about having the League positioned to win the first round game because IMO this is invariably a futile wish, given the inevtiable seeding and first-round match-up. But it's been so long since any non-P played in the tournament I really don't even consciously think about that possibility.

Of course, when Brown gets its team, I may have to reconsider.

 
Hoop It Up 
newbie
Posts: 2

Reg: 12-22-04
We See What We Want To See, Don't We?
12-22-04 03:30 PM - Post#1450    
    In response to

Old Bear, You should not feel apologetic about rooting for Temple to win. We can all try to analyze rationally which team to support in any game but, ultimately, our subconscience will override our logic. If you want Princeton to lose, that's your prerogative. No harm done.

But your biases are stronger than even you will admit to us here. Anybody who has ever laced up a pair of sneakers and stepped onto the court could see the goaltending infraction on Will Venable's last shot. It's irrelevant whether you have seen worse calls in other venues. Indeed, if you didn't see goaltending on that play, you have absolutely no credibility to evaluate any other call at Jadwin, the Palestra or the hoop in your driveway.

For you to say with a straight face "it looked pretty close to me" tells me either that you can't admit to yourself how deeply held your bias against Princeton is, or that you don't know anything about basketball.

 
Anonymous 

Re: We See What We Want To See, Don't We?
12-22-04 03:45 PM - Post#1451    
    In response to Hoop It Up

I said it was close; I didn't say I didn't think it was goaltending. I believe the determining factor is whether the ball had started it's downward movement, not whether it reached the Backboard.
P04's above comment only strenthens my feelings!

 
Hoop It Up 
newbie
Posts: 2

Reg: 12-22-04
Re: We See What We Want To See, Don't We?
12-22-04 04:15 PM - Post#1452    
    In response to

Old Bear, Please excuse me if my language was too strong in my earlier message. I certainly don't want my post to sound like a personal attack.

My larger point is that none of us should underestimate how deeply our rooting interests affect our perspective on "reality." We really do see what we want to see, and we believe what we want to believe. Acknowledging that truth should inform every opinion we hold and every message that we post.

By the way, the goaltending call WASN'T close. The ball HAD started its downward movement. If that play unfolds exactly in that way on a neutral court during the middle of a game (when officials don't feel political pressure to swallow their whistles), goaltending will be called 98 times out of 100. I submit it wasn't called on Monday night because none of the referees had the backbone to stand up in the heat of the moment at the buzzer and potentially become the guy who caused Chaney to lose his 1000th game on national television. That's an affront to all of us who love college basketball and sports in general.

By the way, I believe your second message supports my original point, perhaps unintentionally. As I interpret your remarks, you find P04's comment somewhat offensive and therefore you are more willing to believe that Salisbery didn't goaltend on Venable's shot. Like I said, we see what we want to see, don't we?

 
Domer72 
newbie
Posts: 29
Domer72
Loc: Rural Iowa
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-22-04 04:55 PM - Post#1453    
    In response to Bruno

Bruno, you are describing a fan that has embraced the "Philly" experience and run with it. Remember, we booed Santa!

Seriously, these are great fans and they make the Palestra memorable. Did I mention that I grew up in and around Philly. Maybe I'm biased.

 
YaleEli 
goober
Posts: 62

Loc: Greenwich, CT
Reg: 12-07-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-22-04 09:34 PM - Post#1454    
    In response to Domer72

I watched the Princeton-Temple game and believe, objectively, that the block shot should have been called goaltending on the part of Temple. I thought it was an easy call that the officials blew!

That being said, I am not a proponent of supporting Ivy league schools against non-conference opponents -- particularly if they are Princeton and/or Penn teams. I agree with one of the earlier postings in which someone called out the 2Ps' fan base for being obnoxious given their domination of the basketball league. Unfortunately, they have a right to boast until someone knocks them off their pedestal, but I would really enjoy having the tide turn in the 21st century. Talk is cheap, though. The other 6 teams need to go out and do something about the domination.

Being a longtime suffering Eli fan, I take pleasure when the 2Ps suffer because it is unexpected both within and outside the league. I am competitive by nature, and could not fathom pulling for other Ivy teams since only one will get a bid to the NCAAs anyway. Therefore, if my team struggles with its non-league schedule, I want this suffering to be shared so that none of the other 7 teams in the league gets too self-assured come the Ivy-league schedule.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-23-04 03:05 PM - Post#1455    
    In response to YaleEli

As a long time Yale fan, you should be quick to realize that in the one year Yale actually competed for the title it was the Yale administration that had to apologize to Princeton for its fan behavior which included racial taunts and other "uniquely obnoxious" examples of fan misbehavior. In other years - frankly - very few cared enough to even be heard.

In all the years of the Penn Princeton rivalry, I've heard some bad stuff, but nothing close to what Yale fans did that night. As a side note, I'll add that the Brown fans were equally out of line (I think that same year) up in Providence although they were more into hurling objects than racial slurs.

Personally - when Princeton battled Temple toe to toe on ESPN2, it did a lot more for the league than anything Yale or Brown have contributed in the past 20 years.

So I guess I should be glad Columbia got its butt kicked last night instead of beating up on the sisters of the poor, but in reality - the League can only improve its position when the entire group of 8 succeeds. It doesn't do either Princeton or Penn much good to have to play some of the worst teams in D1 basketball twice a year. Let's go Lions.

 
YaleEli 
goober
Posts: 62

Loc: Greenwich, CT
Reg: 12-07-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-24-04 01:28 AM - Post#1456    
    In response to AsiaSunset

I also attended the game at Yale back in 2002 when the "racial" remarks were allegedly made. Where in the Ivy league does this not happen? Granted, some fans may not be affiliated with the particular University in question (and I am not certainly supporting the bonehead(s) who used that foul language). However, I have heard these types of comments come from fans throughout the League while attending away games during the Ivy season. So, please, get off your obnoxious pedestal.

With regards to your point that you would rather have Penn and Princeton play against more "worthy" opponents than the other "sister" schools in the Ivy League, why don't you lobby your respective Board of Trustees to see if there is any interest in joining a new conference (might I recommend the Patriot League or Atlantic 10) so that you can offer scholarships and really become the "Stanford of the East"? I bet your respective teams would become the "creampuffs" in those leagues for many years to come.

I don't buy into the view that many folks have on this site that Penn and Princeton will continue its domination of the league. Better coaching and recruiting (see Yale and Columbia) will start to spread the wealth around the league for the foreseable future.

My recommendation to you: enjoy the fond memories of the Penn/Princeton domination during the 20th century because, my friend, those days are numbered.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-24-04 02:04 AM - Post#1457    
    In response to YaleEli

Where has this "better coaching and recruiting" gotten Yale? They already peaked with the co-title. The frosh stars have underachieved more and more each year since. Oh, and maybe Mr. Jones should've left while I was still a hot up-and-comer, because the last two years (and this one seems to be more of the same) aren't doing much for his resume.

I don't need to enjoy the fond memories because I have yet to see a real sign of things changing. Until any other team proves it can sustain any sort of competitiveness, I'll expect the continued domination.

 
mshimmy 
Sophomore
Posts: 193
mshimmy
Loc: Miami, FL
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-24-04 07:11 AM - Post#1458    
    In response to YaleEli

We still don't take you seriously.
"Our team will win our next 10 games in a row. I know that." Judson Wallace, February 8, 2005 http://www.letsgoquakers.com/02082005PrincetonatPenn.mpg


 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: there's nothing to be ashamed of
12-24-04 08:17 AM - Post#1459    
    In response to YaleEli

You're as bad a revisionist as our old friend BRF. Want to refresh your selective memory. Read https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2002/02/22/sports/4444.shtml

I was there too that night. There were tens of El Nokali posters that were distributed. The racial chants directed at Venable were by the entire student section. It was so bad that Yale administrators actually had to issue a formal apology.

I can assure you nothing near that bad ever happened at Jadwin or the Palestra. Things have gotten out of hand between the two schools with some of sexually loaded double entendres, but even that has run its course. It sort of peaked with the firecracker incident and there haven't been problems since.

Most coaches know that Princeton and Penn have the programs they want to replicate and the knowledgable and enthusiastic crowds they would like following their teams throughout the season.

 
13otto 
Masters Student
Posts: 779
13otto
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: A shameful admission
12-28-04 06:41 PM - Post#1460    
    In response to P04

P04 - As a Quaker fan, if Penn was eliminated from the Ivy race, I'd root for Princeton. I, too, would prefer to keep the long Penn-Princeton reign going.

 
Anonymous 

Re: A shameful admission
01-01-05 07:36 PM - Post#1461    
    In response to P04

I would like to see a team other than the P's win. The league needs to be more competitive.

 
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