Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-22-06 06:54 PM - Post#18610
It seems that this year many more fans hope that Fran stays than in the past. I personally hope he does - I've always been a huge advocate for him. I really like Trice's comment that Fran's at the top of his game.
I know Penn fans want to be truly nationally competitive, but I think those days are essentially over. Fans hoping to relive 1979 or the Bill Bradley days have to realize that great players that want a good education have great options at Duke and Stanford. We have very little else over either institution - note Prospective Dad's interest in his son attending Stanford. Every once in a while we may be able to put together some teams that can dwindle in the fringes of top 30, if we have fortunate recruiting circumstances.
Fran has done a great job within these constraints - in fact there is only one coach who has come close - Pete Carril. You could now argue that Fran's ivy record is more impressive Carril's. His teams always play hard, represent the U well, and almost always make the tourney.
So... for those few remaining people who would like a regime change, what possible candidate do you see that would realistically do a better job on any of the following dimensions (running the program, recruiting, winning the league, and even being more competitive in NCAA's)? Certainly Miller and the (former) Assistants don't seem to be clear improvements in any of these areas. And none of them has won an NCAA game as a head coach at a non-scholarship school.
STAY FRAN, STAY!!!
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-22-06 06:58 PM - Post#18611
In response to Penndemonium
Do you really think that the only high level basketball players in the country that want a good education are at Duke and Stanford?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 03:53 AM - Post#18612
In response to SFlaQuaker
No, but they can also attend every other non-Ivy Division I school for a scholarship. Do you really think that the Ivies are the only places to get a good education? The point remains valid - how much better can we expect to get without scholarships? And which coach shows any clear signs that they would do a better job than Fran?
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 10:37 AM - Post#18613
In response to Penndemonium
Beside being one of the most innovating coach in the history of basketball, Pete Carril's post season record was far better the Fran's. Penn fans might hate him, but I think there is no comparison.
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jackstraw
goober
Posts: 84
Reg: 05-10-05
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 10:57 AM - Post#18614
In response to Big R&B Truth
Gotta disagree with you. To say that Dunphy does not compare to Carril is unfounded. I also wouldn't call running the same offense, regardless of what type of team you have, innovative.
| Pete Carril: "That guy (Tony Price) belongs in jail not on a court." |
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 11:51 AM - Post#18615
In response to Big R&B Truth
By that standard, I guess Bob Weinhauer was a far better coach than Carril....after all, he had an NCAA record of 6-5 and took Penn to a Final Four. Petey won what, 2 NCAA games? Sorry, that Georgetown game doesn't count (although they should have gotten the call).
Maybe, just maybe, the landscape had changed dramatically by the time Fran took the reins at Penn such that NCAA record has zero to do with the quality of his coaching. Let's face it...other than the BC game last year, Penn has been competitive in every NCAA game that they have been in under Dunphy. And Petey never dominated his league as Fran has since his first team was built. 9 titles in 14 years (10 if you include the lost playoff in '96, which I don't).
Argue what you will about Petey's "innovation" --that of course was inherited from his predecessors at Princeton and decades of New York and Philadelphia ball prior to that. Still, he had a great career and left at the right time. The real question is whether it is the right time for Fran...I don't think so...especially to Temple, which has a program which must be rebuilt.
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Anonymous
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 12:44 PM - Post#18616
In response to jackstraw
Jackstraw wrote:
"Gotta disagree with you. To say that Dunphy does not compare to Carril is unfounded. I also wouldn't call running the same offense, regardless of what type of team you have, innovative."
If you don't think Carril adapted the offense based on his personnel then you didn't watch them often. Carril would agree the Princeton offense wasn't "innovative." He often said much of it was taken from old Boston Celtic plays. But he certainly didn't copy the main patterns in the offense from anyone else, as numerous HS, college and NBA teams have copied (or adapted) it from him.
If Dunphy leaves Penn now he would be considered the second most successful Ivy League coach to Carril. If he stays another 10 years and has similar success Fran could end up being regarded as the most successful Ivy coach ever. So, he certainly compares to Carril, but Pete has an edge at this point based mainly on longevity.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6417
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 02:30 PM - Post#18617
In response to Big R&B Truth
Far better? 2-11 in what, 28 seasons, is how much better than 1-9 over 17?
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-23-06 03:43 PM - Post#18618
In response to SomeGuy
Not to mention how that compares to Penn's tourney success over the same span.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 12:16 AM - Post#18619
In response to SomeGuy
Quote:
Far better? 2-11 in what, 28 seasons, is how much better than 1-9 over 17?
If you count NITs, Carril is 7-12. You have to take in account that far fewer teams made the NCAAs until the mid 80s.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 12:26 AM - Post#18620
In response to jackstraw
Quote:
Gotta disagree with you. To say that Dunphy does not compare to Carril is unfounded. I also wouldn't call running the same offense, regardless of what type of team you have, innovative.
That's not what the people in Springfield think. You should visit the BB Hall of Fame. There is a whole exhibit dedicated to his system.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6417
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 12:48 AM - Post#18621
In response to Big R&B Truth
And what does that mean? A tougher field in the NCAAs? Penn's performance during that era demonstrates that an Ivy team could win more than one game over a 27 year span (Caril's record before the UCLA win). A tougher field in the NIT? Perhaps, but I don't think Division I was nearly as deep as a whole in those days, so I'm not so sure. Moreover, you're basically depending on the '75 NIT run for your entire definition here.
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clio
Freshman
Posts: 7
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 01:14 AM - Post#18622
In response to SomeGuy
Counting wins in 1983 and 1984 at the Palestra in what was called the NCAA Preliminary Round Pete's overall post season record was 9-12.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 07:03 AM - Post#18623
In response to Big R&B Truth
That's ridiculous---the Ivies have had one team in the NCAA's its entire existence. The expansion to 64 had nothing to do with the number of Ivy teams in the NCAA's. Count the NIT if you wish, but those are years that the Ivy had a team named Penn in the NCAA...usually winning a game or more. Why not count the Holiday Festival if you want games won in the Garden?
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jackstraw
goober
Posts: 84
Reg: 05-10-05
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-24-06 11:12 AM - Post#18624
In response to Big R&B Truth
And Aerosmith is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Shame so what's your point.
| Pete Carril: "That guy (Tony Price) belongs in jail not on a court." |
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-25-06 03:03 AM - Post#18625
In response to jackstraw
First, I been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. It far superior to any other Hall of Fame in this country.
Second, my point on Petey is that he is generally accepted by his peers and basketball historians as one of the most innovative and influential coaches in basketball history. As Penn fans, we might dislike him, but this is his legacy.
If Dunphy stays at Penn for the rest of his career, he will be remembered as a good coach that regularly beat the competition in his league. However, he has failed to take Penn to a higher level, nor has he invented an innovative approach to basketball.
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Pennsylvania69
Junior
Posts: 206
Loc: Chester County, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-25-06 04:03 AM - Post#18626
In response to Big R&B Truth
So - you've been to all of the other Halls of Fame as well? Otherwise, how can you make a comparison?
If you read Pete's book, you will see him say that he didn't invent the "Princeton System". Others on the board have told you the same thing. The fact that the media latched on to the idea that Pete was the innovator and continue to report this as fact doesn't make it a fact.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-25-06 10:35 PM - Post#18627
In response to Pennsylvania69
Besides the Rock N Roll Hall of fame, I have been to the Basketball hall of fame which is by far the best sports hall, the baseball hall of frame, which badly needs some updating, and the pro football hall of fame which is terrible. I have also seen the horse racing hall of fame, the inventor’s hall of fame, the accountant’s hall of fame (you haven’t lived until you have seen Arthur Anderson’s plaque), and the Broadway hall of fame. I have never been to the halls of fame for college football, swimming, golf, bowling, tennis ,or polka. However I doubt if these can come close to the Rock N Roll hall of fame. I highly recommend it if for some reason you are visiting the Cleveland area.
Arguing where Pete Carril derived his offense from is like arguing over the origin of baseball. It is beyond dispute by all basketball experts that Pete Carril invented what is called the ‘Princeton Offense”. I find it amusing that so many of the Penn fans on this board cannot get beyond their abhorrence for Princeton that they can’t even give Yoda credit for something everyone else in the country does.
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foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
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Re: Coaching Debate
03-25-06 10:42 PM - Post#18628
In response to Big R&B Truth
Credit or blame?
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