internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-09-05 12:07 AM - Post#2054
Princeton made one of 17 threes against Duke; some were open looks. Treys are their usual strong suit.
Penn shot 30.8% from the field overall against U of Ill.-Chicago, with but 28% from outside the arc, a range from which they're usually good.
Capable of performances like that, the two are beatable in the league.
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YaleEli
goober
Posts: 62
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps?
01-09-05 12:53 AM - Post#2055
In response to internetter
I think the days of the killer Ps intimidating the rest of the League are quickly coming to an end. When you start to believe the hype as players that "you can't sweep the Ps" when you visit NJ and Philly, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Stripes
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Boston
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps?
01-09-05 12:55 AM - Post#2056
In response to internetter
Can't speak for the Quakers with as much confidence as I can for the Tigers, but I see the following:
1) Getting off the road to the friendly confines
2) Playing a set of competition with much less depth or athleticism than recent competition
3) Getting a healthier Owings back (and maybe Logan?)
4) Playing a level of defense that will stifle/shock/surprise Ivy competition
As for the three-point shooting, I won't be surprised if either Savage or Owings end up in the top 3-4 of 3-pt shooting percentage in league games.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps?
01-09-05 05:42 AM - Post#2057
In response to Stripes
No doubt, Pr is not a bunch of toothless cats. But, their shooting at home hasn't been too consistent, either. They did well enough against 1-8 Loyola but were less than sterling playing Davidson, 5-7: FGs 17-43 threes: 10-28.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-09-05 08:50 AM - Post#2058
In response to internetter
Welcome! It's good to have you here. With Begley and Osmunson shooting 45 percent on threes, I think Penn has no problem in that area. As Princeton's RPI suggests, there has been no fallng off by the Tigers either.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 06:05 AM - Post#2059
In response to Rob
The stats are hardly determinative, just, perhaps, suggestive. Granted, the calibre of opposition matters but the ball still goes into the hole, no matter the opponents.
as of Jan. 11 http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/stats/basketball/men/confldrs.htm
FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGES
# Team G FG FGA Pct
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1.Cornell............. 13 291 652 .446
2.Columbia............ 12 280 635 .441
3.Brown............... 13 304 700 .434
4.Yale................ 12 305 717 .425
5.Dartmouth........... 14 318 753 .422
6.Princeton........... 13 225 533 .422
7.Harvard............. 14 337 809 .417
8.Penn................ 10 216 551 .392
3-POINT FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGES
# Team G FG FGA Pct
--------------------------------------------
1.Brown............... 13 112 280 .400
2.Dartmouth........... 14 97 245 .396
3.Cornell............. 13 96 251 .382
4.Columbia............ 12 102 269 .379
5.Penn................ 10 68 193 .352
6.Yale................ 12 60 179 .335
7.Harvard............. 14 85 254 .335
8.Princeton........... 13 89 286 .311
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Tiger82
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Statistics Lie
01-12-05 11:30 AM - Post#2060
In response to internetter
Looking at FG percentages against differing levels of competition is like comparing apples and oranges, as all Ivy educated fans should know. Princeton vs Duke and Penn vs Wisconsin doesn't at all compare with Brown vs Binghamton, Columbia vs Sacred Heart, Cornell vs. Ithaca, Dartmouth vs Harvard, and Yale vsFairfield.
Let's look at conference percentages after the first half of the season. You may only have to look at the standings to see if the killer Ps are back.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 01:00 PM - Post#2061
In response to internetter
Suggestive of what, though? Just looking at field goal percentages on their own doesn't tell you that much. Cornell leads the league at .446, but if you look at field goal percentage defense, half the teams in the league give up more than that. If you look at defense, it looks like Penn and Princeton are doing better than most of the league, even against tougher competition.
FIELD GOAL PCT DEFENSE
# Team G FG FGA Pct
--------------------------------------------
1.Princeton........... 13 206 546 .377
2.Columbia............ 12 258 634 .407
3.Penn................ 10 218 517 .422
4.Harvard............. 14 350 812 .431
5.Yale................ 12 339 759 .447
6.Dartmouth........... 14 345 743 .464
7.Brown............... 13 359 773 .464
8.Cornell............. 13 313 670 .467
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 01:47 PM - Post#2062
In response to SomeGuy
Quantitative assessments aside, I think there is a very real chance that Penn finishes worse than second for the second year in a row (I count Brown as second last year and Penn in a definate third. I know this is arguable, but I think it is a legit ordering).
It is a testament to Fran and the program in general that the mere possibility of two consecutive third-place finishes would constitute anything close to a 'drop-off' for any program (especially in college athletics). And the season is yet to be played. But I do think even the most ardent Penn supporter would conceed that the gap between Penn and the rest of the league shrank considerably when U walked across the platform.
That said, I think you still have to pencil in the P's for 1-2, with all of Brown's loses, Yale's maddeningly inconsistantcy, and the fact that Columbia hasn't beaten either of them since 2001.
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Anonymous
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 02:15 PM - Post#2063
In response to light blue heavy
If you look at the wins and losses in actual games played to date:
Princeton has beaten 4 teams (Bucknell, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Davidson) that are better than the Ivy teams other than Penn. Princeton's losses are only to teams better than the ITOTPenn.
Penn has beaten 2 teams (Drexel, Bucknell) that are better than the Ivy teams other than Princeton, and Penn's losses are only to teams better than the ITOTPr.
No non-P Ivy has even one win against a team as good as either Princeton or Penn, but they all have losses to teams that clearly are worse than the P's:
Yale (Radford, UMass, American);
Columbia (Stony Brook, Lafayette);
Brown (Sam Houston, URI, Wright St, Canisius)
Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth (too numerous to itemize).
None of the six is as good as the 12-2 Brown team from 2 years ago or the 11-3 Yale team from 3 years ago.
Penn and/or Princeton probably will lose a game or two to a non-P Ivy because that almost always happens.
If Princeton were to lose more than one game to a non-Penn Ivy, I would consider that a collapse. Next year, after Venable, Wallace, Stephens, and Logan are gone, the outlook will be quite different.
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Anonymous
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 07:17 PM - Post#2064
In response to
I agree with your analysis with one small exception. UMass probably doesn't belong in that list for Yale as(despite being coached by one of the worst coaches in the world) is a little better than you are implying with an RPI in the 80s and a win over UCONN.
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Anonymous
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Re: are they still the killer Ps? Yes!
01-12-05 08:38 PM - Post#2065
In response to
I was looking at Pomeroy, where UMass is #185, but since they did beat UConn and BU, I accept your amendment to the list. The thing that stands out about UMass: How did they get so many non-conference home games?
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