palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-05 01:17 PM - Post#2256
This one was so bad I had to sleep on it...and the sleep began during the game. Before a throng of dozens (the 2800 announced attendance was a joke), Penn showed that its play has seriously regressed this season. Rider has some talent...quick guards, a big center who can score...but they play the same undisciplined and unfocused game played by Penn's first opponent this year, Quinnipiac. Penn beat up on Quinnipiac but struggled just to stay in the game yesterday. Begley's play showed exactly what is wrong with this team---44 minutes, 10 rebounds, a bunch of assists, but 2-11 from three while he scored each time he was inside the arc. This is not a good shooting team from outside, but has guys who can score inside the arc. We are not working for the shots we can hit...we are working for the shots we miss. Add to the fact that we are getting nothing at all from Zoller (if this is due to injury, it is time to sit him down, otherwise, time to start Pettinella) and nothing at all from Oz (unfortunately, Temple appears to be a one time performance) and this team simply will not win. I have to go along with those who have criticized the coaching staff for not expanding the bench in the pre-Ivy season....Dunphy apparently recognized that and tried to get more minutes for Whitehurst and Freed, but these guys aren't ready to provide quality minutes. Right now, the season is shaping up as a 2001 type disaster. Groan.
The individual reviews:
Fikiel--A. Best game as a Quaker, at least offensively. Shot fearlessly, a few times recklessly, but was one of the the only two out there who came ready to play. 21 points off the bench. Quality game.
Pettinella---B. Only other Quaker who played with intensity. Dove for balls, challenged Rider's bigger center and generally played hard. Needs to show a willingness to kick the ball out when he doesn't have the step. This guy should be starting and playing 30 minutes.
Begley--C. When he shoots 2-11 from three, almost all of them wide open, he hurts the team. Meanwhile, he drove a couple of times and took a few midrange shots with success. Time to get him more involved in the flow across the key. Missed 2 key foul shots down the stretch that killed us....probably due to fatigue.
Ibby--C. Also missed a lot of shots. Played tenacious "D" on the ball, but gets repeatedly beaten to the hoop. Some of that is a result of ball hawking---if you try to play so close that you can steal the ball, it is tough to stay with the man on the first step. However, down the stretch, Rider's guards were going right to the hoop and they scored on those drives or tap-ins when our big men came over to give help. Ibby must be the guy who handles the ball in our offense---we are losing the ability to penetrate and tiring out Begley by putting him in that role. I think Ibby is being misused this year.
Danley--C. Tough assignment for Danley---played much better defense on Rider's big guy than Chubb did last year. Simply cannot finish inside. Good foul shooter though. Made some bad turnovers.
Oz--D. If he is not a good enough ball handler to lead the offense, not a good enough defender to stop the drive and does not score, what are we getting? Not a good performance yesterday.
Zoller--F. Fouls, whines and made no contribution. I loved this guy last year---where is his game?
This one was really tough to watch.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23471
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 01:32 PM - Post#2257
In response to palestra38
Amen to all that. I sat at center court 5th row directly behind P38 last night, and can confirm that he was bagging Z's during the portions of the game that he wasn't filling out his report card.
This was one depressing performance. It is pretty obvious that there just isn't enough talent on this team. I don't think it matters all that much how you arrange it. Although I agree that Pettinella should be getting Zoller's minutes, I doubt it would help much. When Begley's shot is not falling, we don't have much of a chance. This team has no penetrators, average shooting at best, no force in the middle and an undependable bench. Other than that, it's all good. (sigh)
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 01:38 PM - Post#2258
In response to palestra38
One positive on Zoller last night was his rebounding, which has been sporadic but was there last night. Hard to notice in the flurry of turnovers and fouls, but it was there. I'd give him an F+.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23471
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 01:51 PM - Post#2259
In response to SomeGuy
The guy whined every time he got called for a foul. What happened to the warrior of last year? He's not limping. This whole ankle injury bit is a real mystery to me. This it seems to me is the key to the collapse of this season. A Zoller performing at the expected level would transform this team.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 01:59 PM - Post#2260
In response to SomeGuy
Oz had the principal defensive responsibility for Jerry Johnson. Johnson shot 6-14 for the game, as compared to 10-18 last year. 7 of Johnson's 23 points were scored while Oz was not even in the game.
While his shot was not falling, Oz had 4 assists and one turnover in 37 minutes.
Based on his defense and only one turnover, I think Oz deserves a higher grade.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8295
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Zoller
01-13-05 02:06 PM - Post#2261
In response to SomeGuy
I made it a point to pay attention to Zoller last night, since I think he is a huge factor in this success (or lack thereof) of this team. His mobility seems fine (he was never that quick) and his confidence started out OK, but then he gets a couple of fouls called on him and goes into a funk. Something needs to happen here, either keep starting him and get him the ball or give Pettinella his minutes.
BTW, for one brief, shining moment the Penn lineup was Begley, Whitehurst, Ebede, Ibby, & Pettinella. Got my hopes up, but it did not last long. I'd love to send that group out against PU with instructions to press and run for 3-4 minutes. Yeah, I'm dreaming.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 02:54 PM - Post#2262
In response to Stuart Suss
Sorry Stu....37 minutes, 1-5 shooting, 3 points, 4 assists does not cut it and when your man scores 23 (you somehow left Johnson's 8-9 foul shooting out of your equation), you have been essentially denuded. Let me see, what grade do you suggest when you are outscored 23-3 and you have played 37 minutes?
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PUGFY
newbie
Posts: 20
Reg: 12-25-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 04:21 PM - Post#2263
In response to palestra38
I usually would not question your so-called "grades", but anyone at the game last night or who can read the recaps and statistics would not give Ibby and Begley the same grade. Begley shot awful from the outside for the 4th straight game(he didn't shoot against Nova) but he did everything else. 18points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists, and brought the ball up all 44 minutes he was in the game. Ibby continues to struggle with his outside shot, and now can't finish when he gets to the rim...real troubling. I thought his defense really hurt as well last night by constantly going for steals and leaving his teammates to help on his man.
I agree that we can't win many games with Begley shooting 2-11, but he did everything else out there and needs some help from his teammates.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 06:38 PM - Post#2264
In response to PUGFY
To: P38
Oz's job description for the game was not to outscore Jerry Johnson.
As I noted, Oz was only on the floor for 16 of Johnson's 23 points (a total which does include foul shots). On some of those 16 points, Oz had switched off and was not responsible for Johnson when he scored. I will not itemize those instances here. Those who know me can contact me for details.
As for Johnson's 8 made foul shots, 3 of them were at the end of overtime when we deliberately fouled him. Of the other 5, 3 came when Oz was called for fouling him in the act of shooting a 3 during a fast break. From where I sat, that appeared to be a questionable call. (It occurred right in front of where you sit, what did it look like to you?). The other two made foul shots by Johnson came on the very next possession when he was in transition off a Jan Fikiel turnover and Ibby fouled him.
I remain of the view that your grade undervalues a 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, and some pretty good defense.
(Good Oz defense was also evident in the USF and UIC games.)
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 06:53 PM - Post#2265
In response to Stuart Suss
Stu, there simply is no way to sugar coat this----23-3 is 23-3. Oz played most of the game. His man beat him on the first step most of the time. If your point is that he played better defense than Whitehurst, fine, but that's not the issue. Oz is a transfer from a major Div.1 program, a la Toole----are we getting anything out of him where that is an apt analogy? This isn't Wisconsin or Providence we were playing---IT WAS RIDER! A starting Penn guard's job is not to hold his own in a matchup like that, it is to enforce his will. The reverse happened yesterday. Whether or not it was a good foul call(I didn't like it but we were by no means reffed), whether or not 7 of Johnson's points were scored when Oz wasn't in the game and whether or not we gave him 3 points on intentional fouls sounds like feeble excuses to me. That matchup was the worst one on the court.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 07:43 PM - Post#2266
In response to palestra38
It's a TEAM game, Mr. 38. Jerry Johnson is Rider's No. 1 player and one of the top players in his league. He is their No. 1 scoring option. Oz did a good defensive job on him. Holding him accountable for points Johnson scored when he wasn't in the game is like holding Whitehurst and Ebede accountable for not playing in the second half.
It would be nice if Oz shot the ball better last night but many players' threes don't drop when they're chasing Johnson all over the court.
Although we like to sometimes analyze basketball as a matchup-based plus-minus game it doesn't work that way. If I were home with my little pad from last night, I could tell you how Penn fared when Oz was actually in the game (they were no more a minus when he was in the game than when Begley or Ibby was in the game), but I think you're avoiding the real issue because even with four fouls, Fran played Oz at every opportunity. He obviously wanted him out there.
If he really was as much a detriment as you say, there is an option: Play him less. Just as it was bloodsport to rip Charlie Copp last year, you're now ripping a kid for lack of production when the coach chooses to play him 37 minutes. And this notion that Whitehurst isn't "ready." Last year when Penn played Rider, Ibby wasn't "ready." The result was the same - an OT loss. But had Ibby played last year giving Schiffner or Begley or Copp a break, Penn would have won. Had Whitehurst played a few more minutes last night in the second half, Penn would have won.
Nobody seems to ever be ready to play until they get a chance to play.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 07:59 PM - Post#2267
In response to Howard Gensler
I'll let some other people chime in on this Mr. G, but my major response is "huh?" Most of Johnson's misses were due to Johnson, not Oz...he beat him off the dribble at will and threw up some poor shots. However, an off guard cannot score just 3 points in 37 minutes.
I agree with you that Whitehurst should be playing more and I am critical of the coaching staff that they have gotten this deep in the season without breaking in some more players. However, I am not playing plus-minus, Stu is. I am just looking at our 2 guard scoring 3 points in 37 minutes while his man scores 23. Who else on our team is going to make up that 20? IF we get offense from Oz, as at Temple, we are fine. With no offense, he is killing us. It is a team game, yes. It also is a game where we cannot get killed in the backcourt and expect to win. Frankly, we lost last year primarily because of the big guy. Yesterday, Penn outplayed Rider up front, outscored and outrebounded Rider. The backcourt is a walking disaster area right now, and we need immediate changes. Either we go with Begley and Ibby at the guards, with Pettinella, Danley and Fikiel up front (assuming we continue to get nothing from Zoller) or Oz must score and make plays.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 08:20 PM - Post#2268
In response to palestra38
When did Oz become an off guard? He's filling the role Charlie Copp did last year: Handling the ball then handing it to Begley to make a play, shooting when open and guarding the other team's top guard. Was Copp an off-guard? Part of the problem Oz is having on the offensive end is his role is ill-defined - he's the PG in the backcourt, he defends the other team's top guard, but then he defers to Begley in the frontcourt and Begley tries to make a play. But Begley isn't really a PG either because he almost never penetrates and dishes and he NEVER defends the other team's PG.
If you want to compare this year's team to last year's: when you match up Oz with Charlie, Ibby with Schiffner and Begley with Begley - Oz shows the least drop off in production.
He could be playing better on the offensive end. He's not the reason Penn's 4-7.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 08:49 PM - Post#2269
In response to Howard Gensler
I don't care who brings the ball to half court---although it isn't Oz all that often...the point guard is the one who sets up the offense in the frontcourt. That isn't Oz. Almost all the time, it's Begley. That is mistake number 1.
As for why Penn is 4-7, it is almost entirely found in the dropoff of offensive production. The main offender so far is Zoller and the second is Oz. Hard to have imagined it going into the season, but we really miss Charley's offense.
No matter how you look at it though, no matter what position you want to place Oz at, Penn will not win when a starting guard who plays big minutes doesn't score.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 09:05 PM - Post#2270
In response to palestra38
The other two starting guards took 29 shots between them (and missed 19!). And you're exercised about Oz's production? How many extra shots did you think were available in the backcourt last night?
And if you see Begley as the PG and floor leader in the halfcourt, why aren't you blaming him for failing to get shots for his teammate?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32863
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 09:15 PM - Post#2271
In response to Chip Bayers
Try reading Chip. I said using Begley as the point guard is a mistake. Ibby clearly needs to have that assignment, even if he makes some mistakes. However, Begley was far more productive yesterday than Oz. Where I disagree with Howard is primarily the notion that Oz in in there as a defensive specialist. Our perimeter defense was generally poor yesterday, and Oz was no exception.
This isn't an issue of available shots---Oz took his shots early, missed them and then simply stopped taking shots. The guys are taking too many threes when they are not good long range shooters (Begley excepted, but he is missing them lately). Having no one to break down defenses means Penn is not getting the shots it needs from makeable distances.
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PUGFY
newbie
Posts: 20
Reg: 12-25-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 09:26 PM - Post#2272
In response to Chip Bayers
Begley had 8 assists last night and is averaging around 6 per game that is why you can't blame him for at least trying to be the point guard when he isn't.
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seas2k4
Junior
Posts: 274
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 10:04 PM - Post#2273
In response to Howard Gensler
Gosh Howard, as you know from our prior conversations I am warming to the need to play some people off the bench more, but your statement: "...but had Ibby played last year giving Schiffner or Begley or Copp a break, Penn would have won. Had Whitehurst played a few more minutes last night in the second half, Penn would have won." is impossible to prove and unfair to claim.
-seas
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 10:26 PM - Post#2274
In response to palestra38
Quote:
Hard to have imagined it going into the season, but we really miss Charlie's offense.
Last year, Copp averaged 7.5 ppg and 2.6 assists in a bit more than 31 minutes per game. This year, as we head into the easier part of the schedule, Oz is averaging 6.8 ppg and 2.1 assists in 32 min./game (but that number has been steadily climbing). On the other hand, Ibby is averaging approximately 5 pts/game less than Schiffner did last year (in only slightly less time). (And we all remember how exhausted Schiffner looked after games last year.)
But the statistical problem that matters is this: Last year Oz averaged 11 minutes coming off the bench and Ibby averaged 14 minutes coming off the bench. With Ebede, the three perimeter subs played 687 minutes last season. This year Ebede (67), Whitehurst (24) and the departed Kach have so far combined for only 167 minutes off the bench. If Whitehurst plays 10-15 minutes a game for a few games, spells are starters, plays poorly AND the starters' play doesn't improve, then we can talk about our guard play as a "walking disaster." Right now, they have to walk because they don't have enough energy to run.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Report Card---End of the Illusion
01-13-05 10:31 PM - Post#2275
In response to seas2k4
This isn't math class. Everything posted here is impossible to prove. Ask anyone who saw the last five games in person (there are probably a dozen of us not including the players and coaches) and ask them how many of those games Penn SHOULD have won (and WOULD have won with some minor tweaking). I'll bet you that ten of the twelve people say three.
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