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Username Post: My thoughts on Penn Basketball        (Topic#428)
Chuck 
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Chuck
Reg: 11-21-04
Great recruiter?
01-15-05 02:17 AM - Post#2332    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

Quote:

Yes, over his tenure, Dunphy has been a great recruiter. Talent-wise, I think this is simply a down year, due (as you said) to the difficulty of recruiting kids when they know they likely wont play much for two years. Unlike others, I'm not convinced that the talent level won't rebound within a year or two, both as our young guys mature and more talented young guys come it.




SFQ, while I agree with much of what you have said, I have to disagree with the notion (oft repeated) that Dunphy is a 'great' recruiter.

First, let's face the fact that Penn's reputation under Dunphy has largely been based upon the fact that in many (most?) years he's had talent that wasn't just better than the other Ivies...he's had some players that weren't Ivy players, they were players that would start on most 'top 25' teams...guys like Allen, Maloney, Bowman,Ugonna. These were the guys that that really were the difference between Penn being a 'good' Ivy team and Penn being a 'good' D-1 team. Yet, how many of these guys did Dunphy actually recruit? Allen and ....? Now the transfers and Ugonna may have come to Penn, in part, because of Dunphy. But, coaches can hardly control the availability of getting transfers the way they can control recruiting freshmen. So, let's not overestimate Dunphy's real 'recruiting' ability.

Moreover, since the Ugonna, Koko, King, Klatsky class (now six recruiting classes old) can we really say that Dunphy has been a great recruiter? Has he even out-recruited Brown and Yale (to say nothing of PU)?

Whether you think he has or not (I don't), I would strongly argue that the days of recruiting kids that would become more than just nice 'Ivy' players are in the quickly receding past for Dunph.

Now, maybe next year will turn out to be a different story. People I believe think McMahon (sp?) is potentially very special. Some folks on this board think Lewis might be, too. I hope so... What I know for sure is that unless Dunphy can land a real, competent PG he'd better modify how he comes at the game or expect a lot more disappointment in the future (no matter how good next year's frontcourt players are).

Bottom line: I would dispute that Dunph's been a 'great' recruiter...but, there's a strong argument to be made...IN THE PAST. Whether he's still able to recruit the way he once did (however you wish to define that) seems like an open question.

I know Jake would argue that Penn's problem has been that getting anybody that's offered a scholarship (just about anywhere) has become virtually impossible and, as a result, Penn is left with much the same pool as the rest of the Ivies. Maybe so...hope not.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 02:25 AM - Post#2333    
    In response to Chuck

I guess I just feel that Ivy recruiting is inherently cyclical. It's one thing to go to a top-tier school where stars rarely last more than two or three years, giving young guys a chance to play. Unless you're a Begley-caliber player, coming to Penn that year would have been foolish, seeing as how the chances of getting off the bench for two years were slim at best. Even last year, as good as the fresmen were, they weren't asked to be "the guys". Give them a little while, and I still think we'll be pretty happy with them.

Don't forget that we were picked 4th preseason in 01-02, and ended up being a legit top-40 team.

 
Jon Solomon 
T.A.
Posts: 88
Jon Solomon
Loc: Mercer County, NJ
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 02:36 AM - Post#2334    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

"Don't forget that we were picked 4th preseason in 01-02"

I'm curious to know who picked Penn 4th in 01-02. Do you remember?

JS
http://www.princetonbasketball.com


 
Chuck 
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Chuck
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 02:40 AM - Post#2335    
    In response to SFlaQuaker

Quote:

Even last year, as good as the fresmen were, they weren't asked to be "the guys". Give them a little while, and I still think we'll be pretty happy with them. Don't forget that we were picked 4th preseason in 01-02, and ended up being a legit top-40 team.




SFQ, I'm not saying I don't like our 2nd year guys...I do! I think both Ibby and Ryan have to a chance to be really good players for us. What I was trying to say was that what made Penn special under Dunphy (in those years it was special) was that he had more than good 'Ivy' talent. He had one or two really special players and that, with the exception of Allen, its hard to say the rest of those 'special' guys came to Penn under repeatable circumstances.

In a bigger sense, there are times and places where coaches (and their staffs) run out of the kind of energy, creativity and flexibility that it takes to maintain a program at a high level. This applies to recruiting and all of the other aspects of the program. It happens all the time and at virtually every level of college coaching.

I know you didn't say it, but there are a few folks who seem to think that a coach doesn't make much difference when it comes to the results that given group of players achieve. I don't buy that at all...look at Joe Jones with much the same talent that AH totally bombed with; look at Roy Williams with the same talent that performed miserably the year before. Coaches do make a difference and sometimes change, for the sake of change is necessary (or as Jack Welch once said, 'sometimes you pour some gasoline around and light it, just so you can build from the ground up').

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 03:00 AM - Post#2336    
    In response to Jon Solomon

Sorry, it was third (from the media).

http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle...mp;ATCLID=51018

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 03:03 AM - Post#2337    
    In response to Chuck

There's no point in arguing w/ you about Dunphy's coaching, because we tend to pretty much agree, especially when it comes to the stuborness w/ style of play and bench usage. I have no doubt that these teams could have succeded more under another coach, but I questions if we even get these guys with another coach.

As for recruiting, it could very well be that Dunphy and his staff are running out of steam. However, it'll take more than a year or two to convince me of this. And with Joe Scott in the mix (until another coach proves he can do it consistently, they don't worry me), it'll show really quickly.

 
Howard Gensler 
Postdoc
Posts: 4141

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 05:04 AM - Post#2338    
    In response to Chuck

"Moreover, since the Ugonna, Koko, King, Klatsky class (now six recruiting classes old) can we really say that Dunphy has been a great recruiter? Has he even out-recruited Brown and Yale (to say nothing of PU)? "

Have to question this. Acknowledging that Ugonna is a special case unlikely to be repeated in the same way that Ben is a unique case (and not near as good as Ugonna) at Columbia, I question how these other teams have been out-recruiting Penn.

Name the freshmen and sophomores on the other teams that you think are that much better than Penn's freshmen and sophomores? And which incoming class is better than Penn's for next year? Taking into account that it was difficult to recruit star-caliber players other than Begley into the senior class due to the limited availability of playing time, it would have been difficult to get a big group to compete with the Draughan-Gamboa class at Yale or the Venable-Wallace-Logan class at Princeton. Penn was very much in with Logan but he would have had to play three years with U and Koko (no one could have anticipated Logan's extra year injury) so he chose Princeton. To the best of my knowledge Penn was never in with Venable or Wallace but does Princeton have any freshmen, sophs or juniors who you think would be stars in the Penn program?

At Yale, Martin was a transfer and although the Penn coaches like Kaplan, they got Pettinella, Zoller and Danley who play a similar position. They were in with Casey Hughes but he is from New Haven and he would have had to play behind Begley for two years and Schiffner for one so he chose to go where he would play immediately. Anyone else you want off that roster? Any top recruit Penn let get away?

Brown is somewhat different because Miller has been playing his freshmen a lot and getting production out of them, but the only one who Penn was looking at somewhat seriously was the 6-7 forward from Rhode Island who's been doing nicely at Brown but certainly would not have payed ahead of Penn's forwards this year. Same with Coulibally. Nice size, nice athlete but redundant with what we had and would be (not) playing behind Ebede had he come to Penn.

If Columbia's Joe Jones recruits turn out to be stars more power to them, but Penn didn't get out-recruited for any of them (the Ben case being the unique exception). Right now, Jones' best players (Preston, Boswell, Kravic) are all Hill recruits. The only guy Penn and Columbia have gone head-to-head over this year was Lewis - and he's coming to Penn.

Throw in McMahon, Votel, Egee and Cohen (and who knows if someone else joins up) and that is a very good class with a few potential All-League players in the mix.

It's not the talent that's the problem. Any coach in the Ivies would have jumped at the chance to land Oz, Ibby, Kach or Whitehurst and many of them tried. The problem is the lack of a stud - the Allen, Maloney, Bowman, Jordan, Onyekwe-type. Primarily the Allen-Maloney-Jordan-type (there's five titles) who could carry the team on his back when Dunphy went to the whip - the irony being he didn't have to go to the whip because those guys were the whip (and they were usually ahead).

 
Chuck 
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Chuck
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 06:11 AM - Post#2339    
    In response to Howard Gensler

Howard, a few points:

1)I didn't mean that Dunphy had 'lost' players to the other Ivy coaches, I simply meant that, overall, they had done as good or better a job at recruiting as Dunphy had done (over the past six years).

2)You seem to imply that Oz was 'recruited' by Dunphy to transfer to Penn. I don't think you mean that do you?

3)In hindsight its relatively easy to say that kids recruited the year after Ugonna & Co. were recruited weren't going to get much playing time. I'm not so sure that was very apparent before Ugonna/koko, etc., even set foot on the court or even after their freshman season. When Schiffner's class was recruited none of U/K3 had even played for Penn, yet! If this theory generally holds true how is it that next year has another boatload of highly touted frontcourt players when the team already has Pet./Danley/Zoller?

4)My basic point was that IT IS the stud player that has set Penn apart and, with the exception of Allen, most of those stud players ending up at Penn was somewhat serendipitous. If Penn supporters want the team to be something more than a 'good Ivy team' its going to require that occasional stud showing up on campus. Maybe that's no longer possible...I don't know.

 
SFlaQuaker 
Postdoc
Posts: 2427

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 01:50 PM - Post#2340    
    In response to Chuck

Well Chuck, we may never know. But it's only been 6 years since U/Koko showed up, so it could still happen. In fact, before this year, everyone thought Ibby was the next in that line. He still has two years (w/out Begley) to prove it. It's not like certain other guys on that list didn't have sub-par soph years.

 
Quake n Bake 
newbie
Posts: 6

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Great recruiter?
01-15-05 05:00 PM - Post#2341    
    In response to Chuck

Don't know if it pertains to the discussion of "recruiting" transfers, but Oz was recruited by Penn and Princeton while in HS but chose Utah because of more high-profile basketball program and transferred because of the Penn education.

 
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