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Username Post: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20        (Topic#476)
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
01-20-05 04:38 PM - Post#2511    

In case you missed the link in the articles. Anyone from Penn know where the Quakers rank?

Princeton Earns No. 19 Spot in Street & Smith's 100 Greatest College Basketball Programs

Collectible keepsake will be available in stores Jan. 25

Jan. 18, 2005

The Princeton men's basketball program has been awarded the No. 19 spot in Street & Smith's Greatest College Basketball Programs of All-Time, a collectible volume available in bookstores later this month.

Street & Smith's Greatest College Basketball Programs of All-Time, available Jan. 25 at bookstores and other outlets, features a two-page spread on the Princeton program, ranked No. 19 by the Street & Smith's editors. The spread features photos of Princeton greats and a historical piece written by David Baumgarten, a writer for the Daily Princetonian.

Street & Smith's Greatest College Basketball Programs of All-Time also features a foreword by Bill Walton, perhaps the greatest college basketball player of all-time and the father of former Princeton standout Nate Walton '01.

Retail price for 100 Greatest Basketball Programs is $6.99.

The Princeton men's basketball program is one of 15 programs in NCAA Division I to have won 1,500 games all-time (now with 1,503). The Tigers have appeared in 23 NCAA tournaments, a number surpassed by only 16 other schools, and have won 25 Ivy League titles, tops among league schools.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20
01-20-05 04:53 PM - Post#2512    
    In response to BRHPr91

One would think, with even more wins all-time than the Tigers, that they would be. But who knows.

As far as I've seen, Tulsa is the only other school (so far) that has trumpeted it's place on this Street & Smith list with a press release.


 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Cheap shot alert
01-20-05 09:01 PM - Post#2513    
    In response to Chip Bayers

As of today, Northeastern (#93) has issued a release too:

http://www.gonu.com/mbasketball/news/street&smiths.htm

More importantly, is there a reason why a school should not "trumpet" such a designation any more than, say pre-season all-league or post-season All-American selections, or the voting by some panel of writers of a basketball arena as one of the best, or any other notable athletic news?

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 01:18 AM - Post#2514    
    In response to sparman

No, there's no reason. You've read an awful lot into a single verb.

One assumes this release is cribbed directly from promotional material Street & Smith's is sending out to all the schools on the list, in hopes of generating additional book sales.

In that light, it's interesting that S&S is doing such a terrible job of promoting it on their own site, where there's zero information about it. There's an ad for the "100 Greatest College Players," but not the team book.

Utah (#11) and Louisiana-Monroe (#95) also appear to have put out releases in the past day or two on their selection, judging from a quick Google News search. Those two mention whether or not other teams in their conference or state were also chosen (for the record, they are: #28 UNLV, #36 BYU, #42 Wyoming, #50 LSU, #51 Weber State, #82 Utah State, and "98 New Mexico).

The Top Ten, in order, are: Kentucky, UCLA, North Carolina, Kansas, Duke, Indiana, Louisville, Arkansas, Connecticut, and Cincinnati. I'm kind of shocked that a Syracuse or a St John's didn't make the top ten, or rank ahead of Utah, given that both are in the top ten in all-time wins, all-time winning %, and all-time NCAA tournament appearances.

Here are the purported criteria, according to the Utah release:

"The programs were graded on the basis of NCAA Tournament success, NIT success, national championships, conference regular season and tournament titles, all-time win-loss percentage, graduation rate, NCAA infractions, NBA first-round draft picks and mascot ferocity."

So you can thank the kids in the ratty Tiger costumes for their contribution. Penn fans have to hope that whoever was involved didn't get a look at the latest, lamest iteration of the Quaker before the rankings were compiled.


 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 06:51 PM - Post#2515    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Holy Cross has announced it made the list, at #68.

That release also announced the presence of Dartmouth (66th), Boston College (74th), Providence (75th), Massachusetts (78th) and Northeastern (93rd).

Santa Clara "trumpeted" its ranking of 72nd as well.

Judging from Dartmouth's place in the rankings, I think it is safe to assume that Penn made the list, somewhere between 20th and 65th.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 06:59 PM - Post#2516    
    In response to BRHPr91

Western Kentucky also announced that it's ranked 31st overall, sandwiched between Purdue at #30 and (Penn alert) Villanova at #32.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 08:57 PM - Post#2517    
    In response to BRHPr91

Quote:

Judging from Dartmouth's place in the rankings, I think it is safe to assume that Penn made the list, somewhere between 20th and 65th.




Well, they should be Top Ten simply for building The Palestra, given its place in the history of the college game, but we'll let that go!

The fact that the Quakers are also 8th in all-time wins (#1 in the Ivies), 19th in all-time win % (#1 in the Ivies), and have the most NCAA tournament wins of any Ivy team should at least get them into the top 20, but who knows.

A Tennessee-Chattanooga press release touting their selection suggests there was an an actual point system based on all the criteria (how do you assign points for "mascot fierceness"?), and includes this quote from the S&S volume's publisher/executive editor:

“It is not our contention that school No. 56 would beat school No. 64 if they met today,” Fresina said in the issue. “We examined each program’s entire history in a vacuum, not accounting for strength of competition as much as the impact the program has had on the institution, its community, students and alumni.”

UT-C came in at #81, and says about the point system:

"Davidson is the only other Southern Conference program listed, and the Wildcats are No. 80. Davidson edged UTC in total points, 293.90 to 291.54, mainly on the strength of its five NCAA Tournament victories compared to the Mocs’ three wins."


 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 09:07 PM - Post#2518    
    In response to Chip Bayers

I note, Chip, that you ignored one of the criteria, which was "NIT success." As we all know, Princeton is the only Ivy team to win either the NCAA or the postseason NIT. (Note how artfully that sentence was constructed. )

Somehow I have to think the "mascot ferocity" criterion was added tongue-in-cheek. Although it may explain why the Syracuse Orangemen/Orange didn't crack the top 10...
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
light blue heavy 
maximus
Posts: 164
light blue heavy
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 09:13 PM - Post#2519    
    In response to BRHPr91

Quakers are 8th in all-time wins? does this go back before the creation of ncaas? I dont remember them in the 1500-club

 
Brian Martin 
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Brian Martin
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-21-05 10:14 PM - Post#2520    
    In response to light blue heavy

Looks like a silly list. UConn is not a top ten all-time program. Are NCAA infractions and gambling scandals pluses or minuses? Is that what put Kentucky over the top?

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-22-05 01:29 AM - Post#2521    
    In response to BRHPr91

I didn't think I should mention the NIT win, given that it happened because Penn was the better team that year(actually, that whole decade).

But PU certainly _has_ played many more NIT games than Penn in the past 30 years, when it has been strictly a "lucky losers" tourney, so they could well have piled up a lot of points based on the S&S criteria.

Holy Cross is one of the few teams (the only team?) to have both an NCAA title AND an NIT crown from the era when the latter tournament still mattered, and yet they certainly don't seem to have gotten much credit for it.

I agree with Brian, the whole thing seems kind of a joke when you see UConn in the top ten, and Kentucky getting #1 despite their history of NCAA violations, not to mention their persistent institutional racism, as one of the last schools to integrate their athletic program.


 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-22-05 01:39 AM - Post#2522    
    In response to light blue heavy

NCAA All Time Wins List (warning: PDF file)


 
Rob 
maximus
Posts: 327

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Re Defensiveness Alert
01-22-05 04:09 PM - Post#2523    
    In response to Brian Martin

The list may or may not be silly - all such lists are vulnerable to that charge, from All-Ivy on up(or down).

But your objection to Kentucky seems odd to me. They have been at or near the top in every decade, more consistently than any other team. Most of the bigs cheat, or have cheated. Some get caught, some don't.

I confess I gag at any reference to the saintly John Wooden (with his money man Sam Gilbert passing out the goodies and the NCAA turning a blind eye). And I prefer Tark paying under the table to Knight's abusing his kids. But I can look at the list and think about the rankings independent of that stuff. In fact, I can't imagine how else to do it.

But

 
Brian Martin 
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Brian Martin
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: UK
01-22-05 04:49 PM - Post#2524    
    In response to Rob

Kentucky is one of the top all-time programs, but if you are going to say that infractions are part of the formula for the rankings, then Kentucky should not be #1. They have had every kind of scandal known to college basketball and had them in spectacular fashion: point-shaving for gamblers, FedEx packages of cash popping open, etc., and as Chip reminded us Adolph Rupp was a racist. They dominated the SEC, but it was weak for a long time because it was segregated and because none of the other schools cared about basketball until there was TV money to be had. One reason for UCLA's big run is that several of the other all-time programs, not just UK, but UNC & Duke also either had no blacks or only took blacks who were superstars. So they watched UCLA win NCAA championships over teams like Memphis State, Jacksonville, and Florida State featuring black players who were not welcome at Kentucky.

 
Penn94 
PhD Student
Posts: 1461

Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20
01-24-05 08:50 PM - Post#2525    
    In response to BRHPr91

Penn was 16th.

How do you like them apples?


 
Anonymous 

Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20
01-25-05 08:34 PM - Post#2526    
    In response to Penn94

Suddenly, this list seems valid and important to me.

 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 2
01-26-05 02:29 PM - Post#2527    
    In response to

I think Chuck was right. "The whole thing seems kind of a joke."

The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
sparman 
PhD Student
Posts: 1339
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20
01-26-05 03:34 PM - Post#2528    
    In response to Penn94

As long as they don't issue a press release, it's OK.

 
P04 
newbie
Posts: 3

Reg: 12-21-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 20
01-27-05 03:45 AM - Post#2529    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Penn's just slow to act Chip...as of Wednesday evening, Penn has released its own press release on its ranking on the Penn Athletics homepage.

 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Princeton one of college hoops' all-time top 2
01-27-05 01:21 PM - Post#2530    
    In response to P04

Did the release "trumpet" their ranking or just describe it?
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
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