Anonymous
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01-22-05 09:33 PM - Post#2597
Well, it happened, they got humbled Big Time by the Big Red. I thought this was coming based on looking at the Cornell lineup. My opinion is that Cornell is one of the better teams and may just sneak their way into a tie for the championship down the line.
Unfortunately, our poor Lions are a pretty decent team but it is really obvious playing 3 guards at times loses its utility when instead you really need a good center.
I don't know what the actual reasons others will give for the loss but when it's this bad it is not a game where things did not click, though that is always an issue for any team, it may be the more obvious flaw in a key position that is not being filled adequately.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-22-05 10:49 PM - Post#2598
In response to
The Lions shot only 17 times, probably due to a good BR defense. And,
Name Min FG 3Pt FT
M. Preston 27 5-10 1-2 1-1
G. Barrett 11 2-6 0-0 1-1
B. Loscalzo 25 0-5 0-2 0-0
J. Boswell 24 1-3 0-1 0-2
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Thoughts from radio
01-23-05 12:23 AM - Post#2599
In response to internetter
I listened to the whole game. Clearly I have some self-abuse issues.
Ok. This was really tough- if life was fair, it would count for three or four losses. Columbia just got absolutely dominated in every area of the game, and it was not close. The score wwent to 6-0, then 9-2, then 20-6... I kept waiting for Columbia to go on a run back, and it never happened. Ugh.
Here is the impression I got from listening to the game and having seen the other CU2 game (along with other Columbia games).
1. Cornell showed up tonight in a way they havent most of the year. Rourke made a pretty huge difference against a team like Columbia that's pretty thin and inexperienced up front. They deserve mounds of credit for this game, and if they can continue to play like this, they will pick up more wins than I think most of us would have anticipated. Of course, I don't think they will continue to play like this, but I also thought that Columbia wouldn't have to work until the final minute to avoid getting doubled up in points.
As mentioned last time, Will Scott is a tremendous freshman (I remember how heralded he was last year). Collins had a MUCH better game but still falied to really sound impressive. Dow ABSOLUTELY OWNED Columbia's frosh guards again: I guarentee Kashif and Brett are glad not to have to deal with him again this season.
The switch to man-to-man this game made a significant difference, since Columbia spent most of last game shooting over the zone. This game, part of their struggles were just being cold, but obviously it takes great D to hold this team to 2-15 from outside.
2. Its impossible to blame a loss like this on one thing, and there's plenty of responsibility to go around, but I think at least part of it has to be assigned to the game plan in general, and specifically the press.
I think I mentioned this in a post about the last game, but I definately noticed that Columbia is a much worse pressing and trapping team this year than they were last year. Maybe Cornell was more prepared for it this year, but the Lions could not force a significant number of turnovers, nor could they even execute a halfcourt trap with any sort of consistency. There was no adaptation to the Cornell press-break, and the Big Red got loads of easy baskets basically running through the press, with are least two home-run passes converting.
I like watching Coulmbia press, and I think the team is well constructed to run (deep, small, excellent spot-up shooters, surprisingly good transition defense), even with young guards. But it doesn't work if you can't stop anybody with your press, and you don't get turnovers.
Cornell dominated the passing game, with 19 assists to Columbia's 6 (on 8 more baskets, 25-17). They also won the turnover battle, 12 to 14.
3. The most disappointing thing, to me, was how the team completely lost composure in minutes 8-18. They came out completely flat, which is not unusual for this team, but they have battled back repeatedly. But here they just totally panicked and forgot what to do.
A good comparison is the Navy game, where the shots werent falling. What did Columbia do? They turned to the workhorses: Preston had 21 shots. JB had 8. They penetrated. They drew fouls.
I couldnt see what was happening here over the radio, but Preston shot 50%, but only got 10 shots off. Boswell only got 3 in 24 minutes (making 1). Now I know that this included garbage time, but do you really need your frosh point guards, in their first away league game, taking as many shots as your stars in 80% of the court time? (Loscalzo and Sweet combined for 2-13 in 40 minutes, BL was 0-5 in that). The freshmen (including Montgomery) tried to do too much. Its totally understandable, but they need to know their role in the offense. It's not going to work if they're launching low percentage shots all night. Seriously, not to pick on him, but does Baumann need to take that three? If he's wide open on the wing, he can't drive and dish?
I've been on teams when the wheels fall off, and I feel for the guys. I know its easy to get frustrated and feel like you need to change game-plans on the fly. And I'm having it both ways, insisting that they need to change the press while they continue with their offense. But Columbia needs to have the faith and confidence they had at the end of last year if they're going to have the success they had at the end of last year.
4. The best case scenario that comes out of this is that the team learns that they need to be on the ball at the beginning of the game, from the tip. Whatever they are doing to get pumped before games is not working. If they can stay out of these huge deficits early, they wont have to press too much and everyone will play with a more level head. If I'm Preston after this game, I'm FURIOUS the frosh points weren't getting me the ball more, and I let the guys know that this is still my team, and if they don't respect that, they're standing in the way. Everyone plays better when the ball runs through Matt, especially when everyone is cold from the outside.
Sorry for the length. This is what happens when the Lions get beat in road games they should win. I think I have a little more understanding for what the Penn fandom went through earlier this year.
However, I think that the Lions still have a great season ahead. Obviously, now they NEED to win the games next weekend. I'm optimistic. We'll see how it goes.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Thoughts from radio
01-23-05 01:49 AM - Post#2600
In response to light blue heavy
Quote:
This is what happens when the Lions get beat in road games they should win. I think I have a little more understanding for what the Penn fandom went through earlier this year.
This bears at best a distant relationship to anything Penn fans have gone through this year, or any other year in recent memory. Penn fans are kvetching about losses in winnable close games over decent teams, not blowouts at the hands of terrible teams.
Just to put it in perspective: if Penn lost by 30 to the Sagarin 271st ranked team, there'd be a Jonestown-style mass suicide. Then, if there were any survivors, a "Dunphy firing" countdown, assuming Fran hadn't already joined the Kool-Aid drinkers out of embarrassment.
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stump
Sophomore
Posts: 187
Reg: 01-23-05
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Witness to the carnage
01-23-05 11:14 AM - Post#2601
In response to Chip Bayers
This was a game where Cornell's defense smothered Columbia's guards. Cornell's guards slid over the high picks, or got help to slow the drive. Columbia's young backcourt looked intimidated, like it knew nothing was going to work. Columbia just couldn't get open looks and forced passes and drives out of frustration.
Columbia's 'big' men were no help on defense. It looked like they were not communicating with each other. There were guys getting upset with each other because of blown coverages. Cornell did a nice job of moving the ball around and forcing Columbia to work on defense. Columbia's backcourt did not do much to force the Cornell guards away from the basket. The ball pressure was not there.
Big Ben played sparingly. He has a big body and is athletic, but like Brown's Manhanga, suffers from a lack of offensive moves. It's clear that Matt Preston can't create his own shots---no one on Columbia can. Columbia's shooters couldn't find the range as usual. Boswell always had someone in his face.
I appreciated the fact that the Columbia bench never got down. The guys were on their feet for any Columbia moment, trying to rally. Coach Jones tried a lot of players, trying anything. But Columbia got exposed in its two major areas of weakness--frontcourt offense and defensive rebounding.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-23-05 08:57 PM - Post#2602
In response to
Cornell already has one league loss and has not faced the Ps, Yale, or Brown. They also have some not so great nonconference losses (St. Francis-NY, Colgate, Quinnipiac). I'm not sure I would be predicting them as conference co-champs just yet.
Quote:
Well, it happened, they got humbled Big Time by the Big Red. I thought this was coming based on looking at the Cornell lineup. My opinion is that Cornell is one of the better teams and may just sneak their way into a tie for the championship down the line.
Unfortunately, our poor Lions are a pretty decent team but it is really obvious playing 3 guards at times loses its utility when instead you really need a good center.
I don't know what the actual reasons others will give for the loss but when it's this bad it is not a game where things did not click, though that is always an issue for any team, it may be the more obvious flaw in a key position that is not being filled adequately.
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Anonymous
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Re: Thoughts from radio
01-23-05 09:19 PM - Post#2603
In response to light blue heavy
Nice analysis...I tried to get gametracker but I had to settle to analyzing after the loss.
I still feel that Jones has to work the 2-3 centers harder at prcatice and get them into a game rotation at center even if it means loads of pain for the team.
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Anonymous
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Re: What Happened Today
01-23-05 09:26 PM - Post#2604
In response to TigerDave
I understand your points and feel that your right except when you put it up against what they did to Columbia yesterday. They obviously have a lot of talent (because I believe that Columbia is pretty talented)height, mobility and most especially at the center position (Columbia has a real problem here).
I hope Columbia (Coach Jones)can figure out what went wrong and come up with a game plan and rotation to counter this self destructive weakness in the team.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-23-05 11:12 PM - Post#2605
In response to
They did it against Columbia. Let's see them do it against the P's, or even Yale/Brown, until we give them any sort of a shot.
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-24-05 01:31 PM - Post#2606
In response to SFlaQuaker
Chip: agreed that the Columbia situation is not exactly analogous to Penn's.
However, if you are referring to Rider as a 'decent team', that is at the very least revisionist.
I don't think Cornell has a snowball's chance in H*** at finishing the league with a winning record this year. This was just a brutal display by Columbia, who beat this team fairly solidly at home.
I think that to see this game as an indictment of Columbia's offensive talent, or 'ability to create their own shot' is inaccurate. Preston, in particular, played at least decently against a very decent post-player. These guys have played some decent offensive games against teams like NC State. However, they haven't showed that they can play on the road at all.
In NYC, Columbia has played ok against all levels of compeition (save that loss to Stony Brook back in Novemeber). On the road, they've gotten blown out twice (Cornell and Hofstra) and played sub-par against other teams (Lafeyette, Navy).
I think now the best-case scenario for the Lions is to hold serve at home (maybe go 5-1 the rest of the way) and try to pick off a couple of road games in New England. Worst case is that the team can't get past this loss, loses Saturday to Dartmouth, and the season goes into full-fledged death-spiral mode.
I hope the guys are pumped to redeem themselves this weekend. A couple of solid wins will set them up nicely for a tough month ahead.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-24-05 05:34 PM - Post#2607
In response to light blue heavy
Quote:
However, if you are referring to Rider as a 'decent team', that is at the very least revisionist.
Actually, I was referring to the kvetching after the losses to Temple, USF, and UIC - all top 100 teams, all winnable games. Rider was also obviously winnable, and (by Penn standards anyway) a bad loss. But Rider is no Cornell. They're certainly more 'decent' right now than any non-P Ivy League team, based on RPI, Sagarin, and Pomeroy.
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-24-05 08:50 PM - Post#2608
In response to Chip Bayers
Chip:
I never contended that Rider was as bad as Cornell.
I just said that I understand how Penn fans felt losing to a perceived inferior foe.
You did not specify any games in your earlier post. In MY original post, I was refering to the Rider game. I apologize for the lack of clarity. Perhaps you should ask for clarification before responding in the future if you are unsure what I am talking about.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: What Happened Today
01-25-05 07:25 PM - Post#2609
In response to
Boy, this was a bad loss, but Cornell tying for the league? I think the odds they finish last are many multiples of the odds they finish tied for first. And assuming Columbia bounces back from this, I don't think they'll have much problem finishing ahead of the Big Red. This was Cornell's first win over anyone higher than #243 in the RPI, and just their 3rd over teams above #321.
I also think, based on the last two years, that it's quite possible that Columbia just doesn't matchup that well with Cornell. In the last 2 years, Cornell is 3-1 against Columbia and 4-8 against the rest of the league, while Columbia is 6-6 against the rest of the league over the same span.
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