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Username Post: Thoughts        (Topic#537)
Bruno 
PhD Student
Posts: 1099

Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
01-29-05 03:07 PM - Post#2879    

I went to the game (I was the one guy cheering) and was struck by a few things.

1) Pretty lame crowd. Nothing personal, but relative to what I've come to expect from Princeton fans in terms of both numbers and noise, the crowd didn't do anything to get Brown off balance.

2) Role uncertainty on offense. Venable was forcing drives. Wallace was hesitating on threes, and losing the ball down low. Other than Savage, who looked good hitting threes early, nobody seemed comfortable where they were. Plus, I don't recall seeing a single back door layup.

3) Bad break late? Just before Venable banked that three with 20-some seconds to go, the ref seemed to think that Scott had called a time out after they'd recovered a (rare) o-board. Scott seemed incredulous, and that's a two point game right there. Who knows?

4) Rebounding. Brown is a terrible rebounding team, but got more second chances than I can remember. Princeton got hardly any.

5) Flaherty outplays Wallace. Never thought I'd be saying that one.

I spent probably 15 minutes Thursday explaining to Jake why I thought Princeton would win the league. Maybe this is the wake up call. But, as Jake points out, if Princeton can't shoot from three and can't rebound, it's going to be hard for them - even against Ivy teams. That's what we saw last night.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
P04 
newbie
Posts: 3

Reg: 12-21-04
Re: Thoughts
01-30-05 02:15 AM - Post#2880    
    In response to Bruno

I can only comment on point 1. Princeton has been on intersession vacation since January 22...the spring semester begins on Monday January 31 perhaps explaining the mediocre fan support. Other than that, congratulations to Brown on their victory.

 
bobmed 
Sophomore
Posts: 129

Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
Re: Thoughts
01-30-05 02:39 AM - Post#2881    
    In response to Bruno

Wallace has a serious back problem. He gets an MIR Monday.

Maybe if Scott, would stop berating the players at every opportunity and, maybe, if Scott had an occasional practice on offense, the team would play better.

Bob Medina

 
puck 
newbie
Posts: 10

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-01-05 09:20 PM - Post#2882    
    In response to bobmed

I can't acknowledge how I know or what person on the team said this...But that is alot of the problem. Scot never seems to let up. He "berates" the players at practice as well as game time. The players all seem to agree and are gun-shy, offensively. What player wants to take a shot and hear some of the abuse from Scot if it doesn't go. One player explained, that's why the "constipated" offense. Much of the hesitation you see, offensively as well as defensively, is the fear of Scot. He makes it a personel thing. There's no let up...and he rarely says something nice or positive (in a sincere way). The players, mostly, are scared. Otherwise, Scot's a great guy!

 
Chuck 
Masters Student
Posts: 993
Chuck
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 04:00 AM - Post#2883    
    In response to puck

I wonder if Scott has yet to recover from his years at the Air Force Academy. While AF isn't West Point or USNA, in terms of what its like to be a cadet/midshipman, its still a military environment and people are expected to do what they're told, conform, etc. Maybe Scott thinks he's still got kids who are used to that kind of environment...

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 16918

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 10:07 AM - Post#2884    
    In response to Chuck

I don't hear anyone defending Scott. Isn't this the guy everyone said was a great find for Princeton?

 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 01:16 PM - Post#2885    
    In response to 10Q

First of all, it's his first year as Princeton's head coach and he didn't recruit a single one of these guys. (Contrast this with his predecessors, Thompson and Carmody, who were Princeton assistants immediately prior to taking the head job and so were already intimately familiar with the players.) It's natural for players who were recruited by the easygoing Thompson to be a bit startled by Scott's intensity.

Second of all, you want us to rip the guy when all he's done is post a 9-5 non-conference record with wins over Big East and C-USA programs, two losses to Top Five teams and a loss to Temple that was one of the biggest home jobs in Philadelphia history? Not to mention that he does most of this without his top three forwards? And then his team loses one game to a good Ivy team after basically being off for three weeks? And all of a sudden the sky is falling and he's the reason?

Please. You've got better things to discuss.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
Brian Martin 
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Brian Martin
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 04:54 PM - Post#2886    
    In response to BRHPr91

Yes, these players were not his recruits, but that does not mean that every loss is the players' fault or JTIII's fault for letting them play. I want to like Scott but stuff like this statement after the Brown game just annoys me:
"That program has gotten nothing but confidence against Princeton since they walked in here three years ago and beat us in our own building for the first time," Scott said.

Nevermind that that was a much better Brown team or that these Princeton players beat an also better Brown team twice last year (with a rebound margin of 11.5 pg), or that Brown beat Penn twice last year without gaining any apparent psychological advantage for this year's game. Maybe this year's game was about this year's teams, and what went down between Hunt, Nuualiatia, Powers, Martin, Kilburn and Gloger, Wente, Robins, Wysocki, and Persia two years ago had nothing to do with it. Forte and Venable are the only remaining players who had much impact in that game. Is there any reason to bring that up other than to deflect responsibility for this year's loss?

 
Rob 
maximus
Posts: 327

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 09:00 PM - Post#2887    
    In response to Brian Martin

I am a bit uncomfortable too, both with that statement and with the yelling at the players during the game, which goes beyond what Pete did, in my recollection.

On the other hand, JTIII came in with no burden of expectations. Joe came from finishing fourth in the coach-of-the-year voting, expectations were high, including his own. And he has had very bad luck with Schaen, Logan, Owings and now Wallace. I think he's gotten a tremendous amount out of the players.

 
TigerDave 
goober
Posts: 61

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 09:10 PM - Post#2888    
    In response to Rob

I'm not willing to jump all over Scott for losing one at home to Brown. Neither do I have a lot of time for players supposedly being upset because they are being yelled at. Joe is intense and expects a great deal from his players and from himself. He reminds me a lot of Bill Tierney in this regard.

I for one am willing to let him get on with the job of molding the program according to his vision and personality. It just might be somewhat difficult in these initial transition years. Let's see what things look like in a year or two before passing judgment.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 10:11 PM - Post#2889    
    In response to TigerDave

Someone please remind me of this thread whenever I wonder whether Princetonians actually speak out against the program. I've new found respect for Rob, Brian Martin and Funky Cole Medina

I fully expect that this loss was an aberration and that Joe Scott will be a very successful coach at Princeton. That being said, Dave, why do you have "little patience" for players who don't like being constantly berated? That seems ridiculous to me. I don't know what type of job you have but I know I wouldn't work well in an environment where I'm yelled at non-stop and never praised, so it would be hypocritical for me to say that the players should "Suck it up". I mean if you're happy with the way Bobby Knight runs his program, great, but there are plenty of ways to win without constantly criticizing your guys and throwing them under the bus when they lose with your public comments (Very Larry Bowa-ish, a subject near and dear to my heart).

Throw in the fact that these players didn't sign up to play with this guy and his management style and I'd cut them more than a little slack. Anyway, as I said, I expect this will be just a momentary blip and that once you win the Ivy Title this year, it'll be all peaches and cream, but that doesn't make Scott's style right.

 
TigerDave 
goober
Posts: 61

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 10:50 PM - Post#2890    
    In response to

Well, first, we don't know that Scott "constantly berates" his players. All we have are anonymous reports from a bulletin board making this claim. From what I personally have observed sitting close enough to the bench during games so I can hear quite a bit, Scott is intense and does at times tell players what he feels they should or should not be doing. I have not heard him "berate" his players or act unprofessionally in any way. To mention Bobby Knight in connection with Scott is simply ridiculous and absurd. I think it is really irresponsible to make these kinds of harsh judgments about Scott's style without really knowing the facts.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Thoughts
02-02-05 11:30 PM - Post#2891    
    In response to TigerDave

Pure and simple: Joe Scott is the second coming of Pete Carril. Pete used to--yes--berate his players mercilessly and lost a few good ones because of it. I knew a few when I was there who couldn't take it and left the team. Carril could not accept anything but perfection and would wax on about how hard work begets good character which begets winning. That is Joe Scott's mantra. I like it and think it will pay-off but I would not be surprised if some of the guys who have played for 3,4 years and have won in a more relaxed atmosphere have trouble with it.

 
ptontn 
newbie
Posts: 14

Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 03:52 AM - Post#2892    
    In response to TigerDave

Jeff2sf, you used the term 'berated,' not TigerDave.

There is a huge difference between yelling at players to keep up the intensity and berating them; just as there's a huge difference between Bobby Knight and Joe Scott. I still can't believe you put the two in the same sentence.

Like TigerDave said, I see Scott as a Tierney type - somebody who the players won't absolutely love to play for while at Princeton, but they'll recognize that they're learning valuable skills, they learn how to win, and will be grateful afterwards. As for Tierney, none of the lax players like him much while at school, but they'll tell you in retrospect that they wouldn't play for anybody else.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 21718

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 10:51 AM - Post#2893    
    In response to ptontn

Just for the record pt, it was Bobmed and Puck...Princeton posters....who stated earlier in this thread that Scott berates his players. Jeff was just quoting them...it was not his claim.

Before I put the bullseye on myself, I will let you guys have this one out and hope to see all of you at the Palestra on the 8th.

 
Anonymous 

Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 12:57 PM - Post#2894    
    In response to palestra38

Yeah, I have no idea what the heck Joe Scott does with his players. I couldn't pick him out of a lineup of two. I was merely going with the sentiment expressed on here by other Princetonians. I think berate is a fine word though, of course, Bobby Knight is probably a poor choice for comparison. You'll also note that I said Princeton would win the league, so this isn't a case of me just stirring the pot. I simply objected to TigerDave's quote about little patience. I think it's fair to say that Scott yells alot at his players, and it might be fair to say (At least based on some Princeton posters; if not, correct me) that he rarely offers praise.

I can't work under those conditions and I don't think students should have to, regardless of whether it might produce a title. If I'm Will Venable, I'm thinking, "Hey, I know how to win a title, I already did, under much different conditions. Now some guy is gonna stroll in who I did NOT agree to play for, and start yelling at me? Forget this." Now, you could say that he could quit, but that's not in a warrior like Venable's nature. But that doesn't make what Scott does correct. Look, I know it's difficult for Princetonians to agree with me about anything, but I have a point here, whether it pains you to admit it or not.

 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 12:59 PM - Post#2895    
    In response to palestra38

In regard to the Tierney comments, his first year at Princeton was also my freshman year there, and I knew more than one classmate who quit the team "because the coach was a [insert expletive here]. Andy Moe was one of the freshmen who did stick it out; he took a year off during college (as did I) and then, during our senior year at Franklin Field, he scored the overtime goal that beat Syracuse to win the national championship, completing a stunning five-year turnaround from that initial 2-13 season.

The difference, of course, is that the only person who had high expectations when Tierney arrived was Tierney himself. Still, I see many parallels between Scott and Tierney (and Carril), and I personally don't have ANY problem with that style of coaching. I said it during the Carril years, and I'll say it here now: there are more than 300 other Division I schools you can play at if all you want is to play for a guy who'll pat you on the back and tell you how great you are.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
Penn94 
PhD Student
Posts: 1461

Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 01:22 PM - Post#2896    
    In response to BRHPr91

Carril and Tierney can/could scream all they want because they got results. As soon as, or if, Scott starts winning, he'll be able to scream all he wants without anyone really complaining. That's the difference. People always mumbled about Carril but it was only a mumble because he was successful. You notice the first shots at Scott come after a loss. When/if he builds up his reputation, he'll be able to get away with what he does. Until then, though, without any results he's Matt Doherty at North Carolina.


 
BRHPr91 
goober
Posts: 75
BRHPr91
Loc: Rochester, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 01:26 PM - Post#2897    
    In response to Penn94

As soon as, or if, Scott starts winning?

Man, you'd think Princeton had lost five games in a row during its non-conference schedule or something.
The fans may or may not like a lot of passing, but I know they don't like losing. -- Pete Carril


 
Penn94 
PhD Student
Posts: 1461

Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Thoughts
02-03-05 01:56 PM - Post#2898    
    In response to BRHPr91

Well....you did lose at home to Brown, and given the fact that PU had high hopes of being ranked this season that didn't really materialize, all of the Princeton people I know here are disappointed with this team so far this year.

But I was actually trying to defend Scott, although it may not have come across that way. All I meant to say is that as soon as he builds a winning tradition (read: winning the Ivy League) then the complaints won't be as loud.


 
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