Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-30-05 04:48 PM - Post#2982
Brown came away with a split, and should be very happy.
The Penn game was ridiculous. Penn shot ridiculously well - and were hitting every shot they took, no matter how silly. Everything went right for Penn - and I mean everything. Combine that with really poor shooting from Brown - and while a lot of that was Penn's defense, but a lot of it was just missed jumpers - and you've got a recipe for a loss. I mean - 65%?! Come on.
It was clear that Penn just doesn't like Forte, and didn't want him to score in that first half. They did a tremendous job on him in the first, and got him pretty frustrated. In the second half, Forte did look good, scoring 15 points and hitting a few unbelieveable drives that left the Penn guys looking a little frustrated. But without Forte having his usual game, that meant that Luke needed to step up, and he just looked exhausted. Luke just wasn't moving they way I'm used to seeing him move, and he just missed a lot of shots. We clearly can't have both of those guys playing like that in order to be competitive.
PJ played a nice game on offense for the second game in a row. He's hitting the short jumpers, he had a crowd-silencing putback dunk and foul in the second half, and he's done a nice job. But on defense, he just couldn't do anything with Danley, who just vaulted his status to first team All-Ivy. Danley was too quick and too fundamentally strong, and neither PJ nor Ruscoe could do a thing with him. That's ok - we got a nice weekend out of PJ on the offensive end, and he was instrumental in the Princeton win.
What I liked about the Penn game was how we opened the half. We just gutted it down to a 12 point lead and got some flow back - punctuated by a great Eads dunk. Eads, by the way, did a nice job on Danley defensively when he was in there. I have to remind myself that it's mostly freshmen and sophs out there, and in front of a very lively and hostile crowd, they hung in there.
I'll look forward to getting Penn back on our home court. But right now, they're looking like the team to beat. Kudos to Penn for taking care of business in very strong fashion.
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Anonymous
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-30-05 06:56 PM - Post#2983
In response to Bruno
Bruno, your gracious congratulations are always welcome. Like you, I think that the game in Providence will be quite different from this one. And I'm looking forward to it already.
Two questions on your post, however. First, you lose me when you say the Quakers "were hitting every shot they took, no matter how silly". I agree that they shot extremely well, but what struck me most of all was the quality of the shots that Penn got. I didn't see even one that was close to "silly". In fact, the number of layups that Penn got would have made it hard to shoot a bad percentage!
Also, what is this: "It was clear that Penn just doesn't like Forte, and didn't want him to score in that first half." You can't really believe that a team would focus its defense on someone because they don't like him? Any one who looked at even one game film of Brown would realize that Forte is the key to everything and if you can slow him down, you have a good chance to win. What does that have to do with liking him?
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 12:07 AM - Post#2984
In response to
1) I felt that Penn's 78% first half shooting wasn't indicative of Brown's defense, which I thought was actually pretty solid. You had the big guys stepping out and hitting jumpers, people draining threes over outstretched arms on the perimeter, and guards finishing every drive - none of which were open layups. If "ridiculous" was a poor choice of words, sorry. The point was - EVERYTHING Penn threw up there fell at a clip I wouldn't normally expect, and that, as a Brown fan, felt a little ridiculous.
2) I think you know what I mean re: Forte. Dunphy said he played the tape of last year's Forte torching at the Palestra recently for the team. They were clearly psyched up to stop him after what he did to them on their own court last year. Jason's cocky, talented, and hit the big dagger shots in last year's game. So I wouldn't blame them. But judging by the crowd reaction to Forte even before the elbow, Penn doesn't like Forte, and everyone in the room wanted to see him get shut down.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 02:03 AM - Post#2985
In response to Bruno
Just because I was curious about Penn's shots in the first half, and my recollection was similar to AQ's, I went and looked at the official run sheet. In the first half Penn had 12 hoops in the paint, including 8 layups and a tip-in. The jumpers were all good looks from either Oz, Ibby or Zoller. Without question, the craziest hoop Penn got the whole half was Ebede's tip-in at the buzzer.
The best consolation for Brown fans would be that that was the best half Penn played all season.
On the flip side, Brown's lone senior outscored Penn's two seniors 15-11 and you lost by 23. And although Brown's young guys played OK given the circumstances, keep in mind that Danley, Zoller, Jaaber and Pettinella are all sophomores. And Whitehurst is as good as any freshman you have, you just may not see it until next year.
Not trying to rub it in. I give Miller and the Brown guys a ton of credit for turning around a moribund program into one of the top programs in the League. In recent history Brown has risen from dwarf status to a its own strata beneath the Ps and above the dwarves and as long as you can keep Miller it will probably stay that way. I just don't think you're going to be able to keep him long.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 02:59 AM - Post#2986
In response to Bruno
I was at the game. We may have to agree to disagree, because that's REALLY not the first half I saw. I saw Penn players (particularly Danley) getting free from Brown defenders, receiving sharp passes from teammates, and laying in a high percentage shot. I saw players who have proven perimeter shooting ability taking and hitting what were, for them, high percentage shots. I saw Brown playing soft, disorganized, far from 'solid' defense, blowing assignments and not covering passing lanes.
I'm sure that things will be tougher in Providence, and if it makes you happy to think that the first half last night happened because Penn was throwing up prayers and hitting them, go ahead, but you're kidding yourself.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 04:25 AM - Post#2987
In response to Bruno
I think if there is a real "villain" at brown, in penn fans' eyes, it's Miller, not Forte. There is always some satisfaction at shutting down the other team's star, but I don't think the crowd really took an antagonistic stance until the cheap shot.
As for shooting, I have to agree that there didn't seem to be much in the way of cooky shots for Penn in the first half. Everything seemed pretty clean, particularly when you look at the number of layups.
Quote:
2) But judging by the crowd reaction to Forte even before the elbow, Penn doesn't like Forte, and everyone in the room wanted to see him get shut down.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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I'm glad the Penn guys are on OUR board for once
01-31-05 01:10 PM - Post#2988
In response to Howard Gensler
But I guess it's a matter of perspective. You're inclined to see it one way, and I guess I'm inclined to see it another. Did I see that half with Brown-colored classes? Hmmm. Maybe - I'll grant you that. But how you can say that 78% first half shooting wasn't in some way "ridiculous" is beyond me - "points in the paint" or not. I don't think I took anything away from Penn's offense in my post - they played so well. But to make jumper after jumper - even the wide open ones - come on. The point (again) was they had a great shooting night - greater than I would expect given the fact that not every shot was a layup. 78%!
As for the message "congratulations, but you guys still can't hang with the P's, and Miller will be gone next season", I'll say that while I understand you're all worked up about two impressive wins, and about the fact that Princeton already has a loss, you have a short memory. We swept Penn last season. We beat Princeton at home ON THIS VERY TRIP. Brown is not just respectable anymore. And by the way, we're the ones who had the good weekend - Penn held court, did what they had to do - in VERY impressive fashion. But a win is a win is a win - despite the margin/s. Penn hasn't beaten Princeton yet, Yale got beat badly by both, and you can "rub it in" all you want, but I'd rather be 1-1 on the road vs. the P's than 2-0 at home vs. Brown and Yale. And you still have to come to Providence.
I also - "resent" isn't the right word, but let's say "don't appreciate" - the implication that because Miller's turned Brown into a winning program, that it's a mathematical certainty that he'll be gone. You all have been saying this for years now, after he first won with this team four seasons ago. Well, he's won consistently since, and he's returned every year. It was YOUR guy, not ours, who was the one a hair's breadth from leaving the campus. Clearly, Miller's an up and coming coach and I know there have been whispers, but while I'm sure Penn fans would like nothing more than to see the guy leave, he ain't left yet.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 01:21 PM - Post#2989
In response to Silver Maple
Quote:
I'm sure that things will be tougher in Providence, and if it makes you happy to think that the first half last night happened because Penn was throwing up prayers and hitting them, go ahead, but you're kidding yourself.
It does. It does make me happy. Because that's what I do - I kid myself. (Not being a Penn fan, what else can I do? Right?)
Might you also be kidding yourself if you think 76% shooting in the first half and 63.5% shooting overall isn't in some way a little ridiculous? Has Penn, had five games in the last five years in which they've shot that well? In fact, have they shot that well ONCE in that span of time?
I'm sure you stats junkies have the answer somewhere. Go find it. Perhaps the Koko dunk Cal game?
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 02:38 PM - Post#2990
In response to Bruno
78% would certainly be anomalous in the face of strong defense. It's not anomalous in the face of really crappy defense. I'll bet both teams shot 80% or better in the pregame warmups.
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Warrior
newbie
Posts: 49
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 02:58 PM - Post#2991
In response to Silver Maple
Ridiculous = Penn shooting 87% in the first half @ USC two years ago (including Klatsky's 3-pointer from the corner that BANKED in).
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 04:00 PM - Post#2992
In response to Bruno
I'd say it's not much more ridiculous than 59% shooting overall by an opponent in Jadwin.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 04:12 PM - Post#2993
In response to Chip Bayers
Yep. Jake made the same point to me earlier. Brown's shooting WAS ridiculous - never said it wasn't. But so was Penn's.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 04:20 PM - Post#2994
In response to Bruno
Another point in favor of your ridiculousness argument is that a lot of times this year, even those fairly easy shots weren't going in for Penn. Even with flawless execution, 78% is a little much.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this one
01-31-05 04:24 PM - Post#2995
In response to Howard Gensler
I wonder if Whitehurst really will be as good as Huffman. If Huffman is anything like his brother, he has a chance to be one of the best players in the league. I also understand that he's been slowed by injury a bit this year, and he's still been quite good.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 04:24 PM - Post#2996
In response to Bruno
I guess if you consider anything over 50% ridiculous, you're going to use that word. It's not like either team was banking in 3s or throwing up double clutch circus shot prayers over five guys in the lane, was it? It sounded in both games as if the teams were simply working hard and executing well on offense to generate those shooting percentages.
But if fewer shots go in on Friday, Brown loses the game at Jadiwn. And if fewer shots go in on Saturday, Brown still loses. Maybe by 12 instead of 23.
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Anonymous
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 05:10 PM - Post#2997
In response to Chip Bayers
First, I don't understand what is so flukey about banking in a 3. The bank shot is way underused; it is a good way of hitting an outside shot from an angle. John Wooden would emphasize the shot to his players.
I thought I saw some surprisingly successful shots on Saturday night. There were a couple of left-handers from below the low block that I thought would not go in. But I don't think that flukey shots were the name of the game. Penn played excellent defense, and Zoller and Danley were too much to handle (offfensively and defensively)
As for Forte, maybe I saw it differently. Forte had been driving on the baseline and the referee ruled he stepped on the line. Forte probably thought he had been pushed out by, I think, Danley, (it was a little close), and took a swipe at Danley on the in-bound. There was a ref looking right at it, and no call.
There was also a collision at the other end in the second half after a Brown dunk. I thought there could have been a foul against the Penn player for blocking, but the refs let it go.
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Anonymous
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 05:48 PM - Post#2998
In response to
Quote:
First, I don't understand what is so flukey about banking in a 3. The bank shot is way underused; it is a good way of hitting an outside shot from an angle. John Wooden would emphasize the shot to his players.
I agree that the bank shot is underused. Players like Duncan make a living on it. Of course, those shots are usually 12 ft in. However, I must say that I have never seen a 3 that was banked in intentionally.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: I'm glad the Penn guys are on OUR board for once
01-31-05 05:53 PM - Post#2999
In response to Bruno
Quote:
But to make jumper after jumper - even the wide open ones - come on.
Penn made five jumpers in the first half. FIVE! The rest were layups.
Quote:
As for the message "congratulations, but you guys still can't hang with the P's, and Miller will be gone next season", I'll say that while I understand you're all worked up about two impressive wins, and about the fact that Princeton already has a loss, you have a short memory. We swept Penn last season. We beat Princeton at home ON THIS VERY TRIP. Brown is not just respectable anymore. And by the way, we're the ones who had the good weekend - Penn held court, did what they had to do - in VERY impressive fashion. But a win is a win is a win - despite the margin/s. Penn hasn't beaten Princeton yet, Yale got beat badly by both, and you can "rub it in" all you want, but I'd rather be 1-1 on the road vs. the P's than 2-0 at home vs. Brown and Yale. And you still have to come to Providence.
Wow, take a deep breath, man. I don't even know where to start. If Miller wins a title, he's gone. If he doesn't win a title, he may not be gone, but then he'll have six years without a title and no Forte.
Trust me, I'm not worked up about the wins. I've seen Penn lose enough games that I don't take any of them for granted.
I would say Brown is the definition of respectable, why do you see that as an insult. Before Miller your team was not respectable. Yes, you beat Penn twice last year, but Penn did not win the League (and neither did Brown). Yes, you beat Princeton at Jadwin (great win) and yes, getting a split on the P road trip is tremendous and Brown still controls its own destiny. That's all great. But how you would ever rather be 1-1 than 2-0 is beyond me.
Brown is in a great spot and may run off 12 straight and win the League. You may have the best player in the League. You may have the best coach in the League. But I think Penn has more good players than Brown and has played better against a tougher pre-season schedule than Brown and barring some surprises, I think that will eventually catch up to Brown. Maybe I'm wrong. Hey, I like your team, but I'm also realistic. Don't shoot the messenger.
Quote:
I also - "resent" isn't the right word, but let's say "don't appreciate" - the implication that because Miller's turned Brown into a winning program, that it's a mathematical certainty that he'll be gone. You all have been saying this for years now, after he first won with this team four seasons ago. Well, he's won consistently since, and he's returned every year.
He hasn't won a title. You can't jump from Brown to a scholarship school off a few second place finishes. And don't think for a minute he wasn't trying to get out of there after last season. It just didn't work out.
Quote:
It was YOUR guy, not ours, who was the one a hair's breadth from leaving the campus.
Our guy is in his 16th year at Penn and his alma mater came calling. There is a bit of difference.
Quote:
Clearly, Miller's an up and coming coach and I know there have been whispers, but while I'm sure Penn fans would like nothing more than to see the guy leave, he ain't left yet.
True. But I'd bet you now, if he wins a title, he's gone, assuming any decent job opens up. He's a very good coach and except for Fran Dunphy and Pete Carrill, very good coaches don't stay in the Ivies very long.
Good luck with the rest of your season.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 06:02 PM - Post#3000
In response to
The 15-20 foot angled banker was a regular feature of Scottie Pippen's arsenal. Every now and then, he'd bank it in from 3 as well.
Quote:
Quote:
First, I don't understand what is so flukey about banking in a 3. The bank shot is way underused; it is a good way of hitting an outside shot from an angle. John Wooden would emphasize the shot to his players.
I agree that the bank shot is underused. Players like Duncan make a living on it. Of course, those shots are usually 12 ft in. However, I must say that I have never seen a 3 that was banked in intentionally.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1419
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Well, I'm going to give the mulligan on this o
01-31-05 06:19 PM - Post#3001
In response to Chip Bayers
No argument on your last point, Chip. But it's not 50%. It's 63.5%. More importantly, it's that dominating first half - 76%. For a team that has shot very poorly in many games this year, that's pretty great.
At no point have I asserted that Penn won because they were banking threes. I do maintain that Penn's shooting performance was ridiculous. And you'll note that it was one of many things I referenced re: Penn's performance -- good defense, outstanding play by Danley, Ibby + Oz defense > Forte offense. I'm really not sure what more you want.
Why does this bother all of you so much?
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