BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
|
03-31-07 04:32 AM - Post#34227
As a staunch fan of the Patriot League, I'm going to throw out a hypothetical question for this crowd.
Assume the widely expected improvement in the Patriot League does not occur over the next 5 years. Instead, it remains a case of Bucknell vs Holy Cross for the league championship and everybody else significantly behind us every year and the league remains ranked in the 17-22 range RPIwise with only the auto-bid to the NCAAs each year. If faced with this hypothetical situation 5 years from now, is there a persuasive argument that Bucknell should seriously consider looking into another league affiliation for basketball and/or any other sports? If so, which league would be the best fit & quite honestly, would Bucknell have enough to offer any league that would be a 'step up' to make it an attractive candidate for membership?
Please work within the hypothetical premise as stated when responding - i.e. don't respond by claiming that the hypothetical factual situation won't happen b/c Lafayette is going to get much better now with scholarships and form at a minimum a "Big Three" in the league. In reality, I fully expect Lafayette to be highly competitive in the relatively near future given the capable coaching of Fran O'Hanlon. But for this discussion's purposes - the league would remain effectively unchanged over the next several years w/no noticeable improvement from what it's been the last few years.
Discuss amongst yourselves....
| Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt? |
|
BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
03-31-07 04:35 AM - Post#34228
In response to BUPilot
I started this topic so it's only fair I offer my own take on the question...
Personally I wouldn't want to pursue any changes in league membership even in such a hypothetical future situation because I think it would inevitably come at too high a price for Bucknell & its mission re: academics, true student athletes, etc. I genuinely love what the Patriot League stands for and am proud of our membership in the league. But I'm curious what other folks would think if faced with such a hypothetical situation several years down the road.
| Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt? |
|
BisonRoadWarrior
Professor
Posts: 5203
Loc: Where the Bison Roam
Reg: 08-16-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
03-31-07 12:47 PM - Post#34229
In response to BUPilot
I'd be content with the situation you described.
|
KenZ
Postdoc
Posts: 2777
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
03-31-07 02:58 PM - Post#34230
In response to BisonRoadWarrior
1) i would NOT support looking to move elsewhere
2) there is no league that is a better fit
3) in this age where money rules most conference affiliation decisions, Bucknell does not have what a materially higher rated league would look for in adding a new member.
bottom line, all is well, let Bucknell and the league work to improve within the self imposed limitations of the Patriot League membership. if further improvement cannot be achieved within these parameters, then so be it.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 03:04 AM - Post#34231
In response to KenZ
Two potential conferences would be the Atlantic 10 and Colonial Athletic Association, although my vote would be to stay in the Patriot. Right now, Bucknell and HC have the benefit of being big fish in a little pond. It's unlikely either the Bison or HC could make the NCAA tournament in these other conferences. Also, apart from the Ivy League, the Patriot League is comprised of the best academic schools in the nation.
|
Shot Clock
Masters Student
Posts: 883
Loc: Arlington VA
Reg: 01-27-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 12:44 PM - Post#34232
In response to
Having graduated in 1993, I fully remember Fordham leaving for the supposed greener pastures of the A-10. Granted, the scholarship issue was at the forefront back then. Regardless, that program has been in a deep slumber ever since the move. BU and HC could fit into the CAA or A-10, but just because we could fit there doesn't make it the right fit. Furthermore, let's be realistic - I don't see either of those conferences busting down our door - we don't exactly scream 'major market' (which is pretty much the only reason why Fordham was extended an invitation). Plus those leagues are bloated (membership size) already.
I agree with the poster above. Better to be one of 2 big fish in a little pond.
| B.A. Bucknell University, 1993 |
|
Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 01:17 PM - Post#34233
In response to Shot Clock
At this point the CAA is the only possibly available league that would be an upgrade from the Patriot League, and I don't think that league would make much sense for either us or Holy Cross. Huge travel commitments for our 23 (?) sports teams that are affiliated with the PL, plus many schools with much lower academic standards. And I'm not sure the CAA would have interest anyway. The A-10 might be even worse with respect to these two areas (i.e. travel and academics), and they are looking to get smaller, not bigger, so they are out of the picture for both us and HC.
As for the other northeastern leagues, the MAAC would be a lateral move in basketball, and it is much worse than the PL in virtually every other sport, so that would make no sense. And the AE and NEC are worse.
|
BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 03:04 PM - Post#34234
In response to Bison137
I'm glad to see the consensus opinion is along the lines of what I suspected it would be for my hypothetical. That said, let's change things up a little bit. To that end, instead of either Bucknell or Holy Cross considering a change in 5 years if the league doesn't improve - who could be the best fits for league membership and who would help improve the quality of the league?
I know William & Mary, Richmond, and occasionally ODU are frequently tossed out there as possible fits for the PL in the future. However, just adding more southern schools would likely render our friends at H.C. aghast because of their travel issues. So - in addition to the above-mentioned southern schools (and any others worth commenting upon), what New England area schools do folks think would make the best candidates/fits for the Patriot League?
Ideally, I'd like to see the league grow to somewhere in the 10-12 member range but only if we can add schools that are compatible academically and with quality athletic programs.
| Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt? |
|
Shot Clock
Masters Student
Posts: 883
Loc: Arlington VA
Reg: 01-27-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 04:05 PM - Post#34235
In response to BUPilot
I certainly wouldn't want to go higher than 10 because I think a complete round-robin conference schedule is a must. I really don't see a need to expand at all except that it makes scheduling a smidge easier.
If expansion does happen, I don't think the geographic framework of the league should be extended.
I also don't see any schools knocking on the Patriot League's door.
| B.A. Bucknell University, 1993 |
|
Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 05:03 PM - Post#34236
In response to Shot Clock
Looking at northeastern schools, I don't think any fit the league's profile nearly as well as William and Mary and Richmond. However, those two are clearly not available unless the league moves to football scholarships. Looking solely at the northeast, these might be some of the schools to look at: Fairfield, Marist, Loyola, Boston U, Quinnipiac, Binghamton, and Bentley. Each has its pluses and minuses. Usually more minuses, but if we wanted to expand there is no perfect fit.
First some stats on the seven (from USNews): midpoint of SAT range, acceptance rate, graduation rate, selectivity category.
Fairfield: 1190, 74%, 79%, more selective.
Marist: 1175, 50%, 75%, more selective.
Loyola: 1220, 64%, 82%, more selective.
Boston U: 1275, 57%, 77%, more selective.
Quinnipiac: 1148, 51%, more selective.
Binghamton: 1255, 43%, 79%, more selective.
Bentley: 1225, 43%, 78%, More selective.
For some perspective, the two lowest SAT midpoints of current PL schools are 1260 and 1270. Those two schools are categorized by USNews as "more selective"; the rest are "most selective". The poorest acceptance rates of PL schools are in the 48%-51% range in terms of apples-to-apples comparisons.
Of the three MAAC schools from my list above, Loyola and Fairfield may have the best academics, and they clearly have the largest endowments by a wide margin. Marist has a different advantage, however, in that they have a football team looking for a home. Unlike the other MAAC schools, they seem to be trying to upgrade the program, as they are building a new stadium and have strengthened the schedule. Remember that the PL is very much in need of an 8th football member.
One other MAAC note - it has been reported on the Loyola message board (which may be completely unreliable) that the president of Holy Cross, Father McFarland, talked fairly recently to Loyola and Fairfield, fellow Jesuit schools, about considering a move to the PL. No idea how credible this report is.
Of the other schools, I listed BU just because it is near HC, which would help things geographically, and because it has reasonably good academics. However, its size and other factors might not make it a good fit. Quinnipiac is upgrading its sports program and has a brand-new arena. Also it is looking for a better league than the NEC. However, its academics may leave a bit to be desired. Remember, though, that American has raised its academic profile significantly since joining the league. Binghamton has SAT scores at about the same level as the lowest PL schools and better than the other candidates discussed thus far, except for BU. However it is a state school and a lot larger than the PL schools.
The "surprise" school on the list is Bentley, which is located in suburban Boston. They are currently D2 but have a very good basketball program - undefeated this year until losing in the NCAA D2 quarterfinals. Also good in women's hoops, and they field a large number of teams. There have been rumored to be considering a move to D1 but again I have no idea whether there is any truth to that. Their SAT's and selectivity are not too far from the lowest PL schools, and I'm sure a move to the PL would raise their standards. They also have a football team, btw, and a fairly new arena. Sizewise, at 4300 students, they would be a good fit, and they have a reasonably large endowment.
Having looked at these seven, if the league were to add two, I'd probably go with Marist (because of their recent hoops success and because the league desperately needs another football school) and Loyola, with Fairfield third. Bentley, however, could be a dark horse.
|
KenZ
Postdoc
Posts: 2777
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 05:05 PM - Post#34237
In response to Shot Clock
reasons to expand:
1) ease basketball scheduling challenges
2) add football teams
3) make HC feel less isolated
Richmond and W&M are the two names that have been around for ever and for my money Richmond is the perfect fit (but does not address HC isolation). i have never heard ODU, nor do i think they fit at all. Loyola, MD is another southern name that comes up sometimes, but they don't have football.
i often get taken to task for this, but i think Marist is the most likely current candidate and is a resonably good fit. they would need to commit to a substantial increase in their football $s commitment. Fairfield is another, but they dumped football which lessens the appeal of their profile.
prediction, if anything happens before 2010 it will be Marist and either Fairfield or Loyola. if we wait, i believe we can pick up Richmond as a football affiliate (if the PL gets in gear and allows schollys) and can convert that to all sports in a few more years. few buy this theory as it is based on my personal belief that the A10 is an abomination of a conference with no reason to exist except as a collection of schools with delusions of basketball grandeur, all waiting for the chance to associate with the big boys and leave the rest of their ilk behind.
|
Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 05:17 PM - Post#34238
In response to KenZ
Hey KenZ, looks like we had the same idea at the same time, i.e. Marist plus Loyola or Fairfield.
|
CHC8485
Sophomore
Posts: 151
Reg: 02-01-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 05:46 PM - Post#34239
In response to Bison137
Well, while I was writing this, you guys reached similar conclusions. Also, FWIW, the Loyola president Brian Linnane, SJ is a Jesuit priest who was an assistant dean at HC and on the faculty at HC for about 10 years before taking over at Loyola in July of 2005, so it would not surprise me if at least an informal conversation between the presidents occurred.
Here's my thoughts.
=============================================================
If you use the US News categories, up until now, the full members of PL have been made up of :
Liberal Arts Colleges – HC, BU, CU, LC
Unranked Specialty Schools – Army & Navy
National Universities – LU, AU (and Fordham before)
I don't think AU was a good choice as it is much larger than the other schools (11,000 total students) and has a large graduate student population (45%). Fordham left but had a similar profile and the league needed someone, so from that perspective, I don't think AU was an awful choice.
So, with that said, in seeking expansion candidate I'd like see the PL stick to smaller, primarily undergraduate schools – I’d say target schools in the 7000 total students and fewer range with 70% or more undergraduate.
Other than William & Mary (7600 students; 74% undergrad), which is outside of the geography outlined, the schools ranked as national universities in the northeast/midatlantic region are just too big with a high percentage of graduate students.
Other than the 4 Liberal Arts schools already in the PL, there are only two others (Siena & Richmond) that play Division I sports. Siena is a Tier 3 school according to US News, so is not a good candidate. Richmond is ranked 34, so is a good candidate, but they are in VA and again outside of the proposed geography.
So to get schools that fit the size and academic profile, we’re left with the top Master’s Universities in the US News rankings. In that category, I’d try to keep the pool of candidates to the top 10 in the region (i.e. North). That leaves:
Villanova – North #1; 10,400; 71% undergrad
Providence – North #2; 4300; 82% undergrad
Loyola, MD – North #3; 6000 students; 58% undergrad
Fairfield – North #4; 5200; 81% undergrad
St. Joseph’s – North #9; 7300; 63% undergrad
If you move outside of the top 10 Masters Universities, 2 others come into play in my opinion;
Quinnipiac – North #12; 6700; 76% undergrad
Marist – North #15; 5600; 82% undergrad
So, if I’m being realistic and I want to get to 10 teams in the PL, and they have to come from the Northeast/New England, I’m going after Fairfield first and, because they play football, Marist. Also would take Fordham back as a full member instead of Marist.
If I’m being realistic and don’t care about FB and want to get to 10 with one in NE and one outside New England, Fairfield and Loyola make sense.
And finally, if I’m trying to build a pipe dream ideal in the PL, I add football scholarships and hope for a Big East meltdown. I get to 10 by adding Fairfield and PC - a tough sell given where they are but in light of a full out meltdown of the BE they could be ready to move.
Then get to 12 full members by adding Richmond and either W&M or Loyola. Add ‘Nova as a football associate – as full membership for ‘Nova is an even tougher sell than PC in the Big East meltdown scenario. This would create a 9 or 10 team FB conference.
If we get to 12, play in 2 division based primarily on geography but preserve traditional rivalries where they exist.
North Division: HC, PC, Fairfield, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette
South Division: Army, Navy, Bucknell, American, Richmond, Loyola (or W&M)
Football Full members: HC, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Richmond, (W&M)
Football Associate Members: Georgetown, Fordham, ‘Nova
In sports like BB where round robin play makes sense, play each team in your division twice home & home. Play each team in the other division once (3 home, 3 away)
|
BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 06:18 PM - Post#34240
In response to CHC8485
These are all good thoughts. Just one clarification - I'm open to the idea of schools from outside the New England region. It's just that to me, the league would realistically & politically need to add at least one NE school for every school added from outside of that region. It should be an important league goal to use any expansion to try and alleviate/minimize any feelings of geographic isolation on the part of Holy Cross.
| Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt? |
|
CHC8485
Sophomore
Posts: 151
Reg: 02-01-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 07:27 PM - Post#34241
In response to BUPilot
As an HC guy, I do not disagree. Having 3 hours as your shortest road trip is not a good thing. It would be nice to have at least one trip be 2 hours or under!
|
KenZ
Postdoc
Posts: 2777
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Re: Stirring the pot
04-02-07 07:36 PM - Post#34242
In response to CHC8485
i agree wrt accomodating HC on this issue. despite the PL bashing from some posters on the HC board, the school itself is a committed member of the league and could not be comparably replaced.
|
Bison1999
Junior
Posts: 227
Reg: 01-23-06
|
Stirring the Pot with a slightly larger ladle
04-02-07 10:02 PM - Post#34243
In response to KenZ
First, a bit o' housecleaning: I love Holy Cross in the PL. I grew up in Mansfield, MA and it's no stretch to say I knew about Holy Cross, its traditions and its history well before Bucknell's. Omari Walker (BC grad) graduated my high school 2 years ahead of me. Steve Grogan and Rocky Marciano co-owned a sporting goods store in my downtown. I love the rivalry that's developed, the respect these programs show each and how they represent the league on a national stage.
That being said, I'm deeply uncomfortable with trying to shoehorn another school into the PL when geography is barely more than a passing observation. In other words, it should have as little bearing as possible, especially when each school's other sports, their academic rigor and national reknown are much, much bigger concerns.
Marist? Quinnipiac? Binghamton? Fairfield? With all due respect to their many fine and diverse qualities, they weren't even on my list of safety schools (nor would they be today). Add in the notion that we'd bring one of them in just to add some geographic balance to, say, Richmond or W&M is absurd (especially if you buy into my primary criteria).
I hate to say it but there just aren't many colleges/universities that match the PL template north of Lewisburg, east of Colgate and south of HC.
I say the best to hope for is that the PL never needs to expand. Because if it does, the best matches (assuming mutual interest) seem a bit further south. And IF they PL goes down that road, HC will leave the league, which would be terrible but for which I'd begrudge them nothing.
Go Bison!
|
Husky - Bison
maximus
Posts: 131
Reg: 01-24-06
|
Re: Stirring the Pot with a slightly larger ladle
04-03-07 11:35 AM - Post#34244
In response to Bison1999
has anyone mentioned Stony Brook? Without doing a ton of research, surely they fit the academic model.
|
Husky - Bison
maximus
Posts: 131
Reg: 01-24-06
|
Re: Stirring the Pot with a slightly larger ladle
04-03-07 11:37 AM - Post#34245
In response to Husky - Bison
my apologies....I just looked them up and I thought they were far more esteemed than they actually are......
|
BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
|
Re: Stirring the Pot with a slightly larger ladle
04-03-07 01:45 PM - Post#34246
In response to Husky - Bison
Of course academic and athletic compatibility are the most important elements in looking at what schools could be a fit for membership in the Patriot League. However, geography is still an important issue where expansion is concerned. This is especially true for a league like the Patriot League where schools have limited travel budgets and place a genuine priority on minimizing the number of classes missed by athletes.
I haven't done the research but I suspect there's a number of schools that might be reasonably compatible academically and/or athletically to the P.L. but aren't given any consideration because their location - i.e west of Pennsylvania, south of Virginia, heck even north of Massachussetts - would place too great of a travel strain on the other schools in the league.
If the league were to completely disregard geographical issues and add just southern schools - e.g. Richmond or W&M without any plans to add any NE schools - and it resulted in H.C. leaving the league as a result then it's not a net addition to the league. That's why to me, any league expansion (if needed) will need to focus either on NE or at a minimum balance growth in the south with growth in the northeast to accommodate Holy Cross's needs.
| Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt? |
|
|
