BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
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04-09-07 09:29 PM - Post#34444
It's ridiculously early and should be taken with an ungodly small grain of salt but Joe Lunardi's posted his first Bracketology for next year. He's got Holy Cross as the Patriot League representative and a 15 seed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bracketology
More than likely he's simply picking the defending league champions for leagues like the Patriot League.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-09-07 10:27 PM - Post#34445
In response to BUPilot
This guy need to get a life. What a geek!
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lancelink
Sophomore
Posts: 167
Loc: NYC
Reg: 03-07-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-09-07 10:35 PM - Post#34446
In response to BUPilot
I agree, it's more than likely a pro forma pick of the defending champion in a "one bid" league. However, the fact that he has the Patriot League representative dropping back to a 15 seed is disturbing. It just goes to show how little the past three years mean to the synchophants that follow the big money, semiprofessional major conference programs.
"A joy it will be one day, perhaps, to remember even this"
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 12:21 AM - Post#34447
In response to lancelink
Just for the record, he picked Cornell in the Ivies.
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M.Bison
Freshman
Posts: 81
Reg: 02-11-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 12:32 AM - Post#34448
In response to lancelink
Quote:
I agree, it's more than likely a pro forma pick of the defending champion in a "one bid" league. However, the fact that he has the Patriot League representative dropping back to a 15 seed is disturbing. It just goes to show how little the past three years mean to the synchophants that follow the big money, semiprofessional major conference programs.
Or it just means that he's looking at all the big-time seniors in the conference this past year and making a reasonable guess that the PL's rep's seed will be lower than last year. I don't think HC(15) is unreasonable at all.
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BuckWild
newbie
Posts: 22
Reg: 03-21-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 09:36 AM - Post#34449
In response to SFlaQuaker
When is the last time a team other than Princeton or Penn represented the Ivy League? Just wondering, I'm sure it has happened.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 12:20 PM - Post#34450
In response to BuckWild
Quote:
When is the last time a team other than Princeton or Penn represented the Ivy League? Just wondering, I'm sure it has happened.
I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened since 1988 when Cornell won the league. Yale tied the two P's a few years ago but lost in the playoff.
Next year, ON PAPER, Cornell could easily have the best Ivy team. They return a lot of talent, including a couple of very good rising sophs, and they also will get back the 2005-06 Ivy ROY, who missed virtually the whole season with a torn ACL. Penn, in contrast, graduates, three very good players, who I'm sure accounted for significantly more than half of their scoring, rebounding, and assists. We'll have to see if the returnees can raise their games.
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Anonymous
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 12:29 PM - Post#34451
In response to Bison137
Quote:
Quote:
When is the last time a team other than Princeton or Penn represented the Ivy League? Just wondering, I'm sure it has happened.
I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened since 1988 when Cornell won the league. Yale tied the two P's a few years ago but lost in the playoff.
Next year, ON PAPER, Cornell could easily have the best Ivy team. They return a lot of talent, including a couple of very good rising sophs, and they also will get back the 2005-06 Ivy ROY, who missed virtually the whole season with a torn ACL. Penn, in contrast, graduates, three very good players, who I'm sure accounted for significantly more than half of their scoring, rebounding, and assists. We'll have to see if the returnees can raise their games.
You are correct that Cornell was the last non Penn or Princeton team to represent the Ivy League in the tournament.
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BuckWild
newbie
Posts: 22
Reg: 03-21-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 02:41 PM - Post#34452
In response to
That is further back than I expected. I decided to look it up and only 6 years since 1960 has a team other than Penn and Princeton either tied or won the league.
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jdb037@bucknell
Sophomore
Posts: 180
Loc: Westchester County, NY
Reg: 02-23-07
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 04:09 PM - Post#34453
In response to BuckWild
My friend from Villanova sent me this article; watch out for Harvard in a couple years if this goes through.
http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/me...?p1=MEWell_Pos5
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 04:18 PM - Post#34454
In response to jdb037@bucknell
Why? What has he done at places he could recruit top players to make you think Harvard will be a force?
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jdb037@bucknell
Sophomore
Posts: 180
Loc: Westchester County, NY
Reg: 02-23-07
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 05:23 PM - Post#34455
In response to SFlaQuaker
Well who will he be recruiting against? This guy played at Duke and has coached for big time schools, I think people will want to play for him. It's not like he didnt have any success at Michigan.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 06:02 PM - Post#34456
In response to jdb037@bucknell
Oh please, considering who he brought into Michigan, his "success" was incredibly disappointing. Recruiting players is only half the battle, and I'm far from convinced he can outrecruit Penn (or even Cornell these days).
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jdb037@bucknell
Sophomore
Posts: 180
Loc: Westchester County, NY
Reg: 02-23-07
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 07:38 PM - Post#34457
In response to SFlaQuaker
OK, I agree that his stint at Michigan wasnt as successful as people had hoped, but he still showed the ability to win at a school in a much more nationally acclaimed basketball league. Penn basketball isnt exactly on the rise either. Sellouts arent guaranteed anymore, losing a very good senior class, and the Big 5 is no longer a selling point since the teams aren't what they used to be. Nextly, some black players would rather play for a black coach, and a coach that has coached at Michigan and Seton Hall is a selling point for black seniors in high school. I realize there are other black coaches in the league, but have they had the same experience as Amaker? Losing Durphy doesnt help your recruiting either. Lastly, Harvard is Harvard. A nationally known university and this is not to say that Penn isnt, but it will never be at the level that Harvard is.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 07:45 PM - Post#34458
In response to jdb037@bucknell
First of all, his name is Dunphy. Second of all, Miller seems to have a hell of a recruiting class coming in this year. The Big 5 is still a big selling point, especially for local kids. As is the Palestra. So on those points, know what you're talking about before you start making claims. Penn basketball may not be on the rise, but its not on the downslope either.
As for Amaker, what did he show the ability to win? Just enough games to not make the NCAA tourney? If anything, Harvard being Harvard might hurt his chances to win...will admissions be helpful?
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jdb037@bucknell
Sophomore
Posts: 180
Loc: Westchester County, NY
Reg: 02-23-07
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 08:42 PM - Post#34459
In response to SFlaQuaker
The Palestra is still a historic place to play, but like I said, sellouts arent guaranteed anymore so it doesnt have as much of an impact. If you believe that Miller can bring in better kids than Amaker then I will shut up and let you have that opinion, but thats something that we will have to wait and see. Maybe I got the wrong impression on the Big 5 because I looked at it from my friends point of view who is at Nova. But I don't think I'm wrong when I say that the teams arent what they used to be.
Michigan won 22 games this year and finished the regular season with an RPI of 54; that should count for something.
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pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts: 2470
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 09:06 PM - Post#34460
In response to jdb037@bucknell
NCAA Tournament appearances since 1999
Penn: 7
Michigan: 0
That should count for something.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 09:16 PM - Post#34461
In response to jdb037@bucknell
Sellouts would be great, but its still a great stadium, far superior to any other stadium in the ivies. It's definitly a huge advantage over Harvard. The Big 5 might not be what it used to be, but its still solid and Big 5 games still have an amazing atmosphere (and do in fact sell out the Palestra). And we always recruit some very good local kids, to whom the Palestra and Big 5 are big draws.
And I never argued that Amaker couldn't improve the quality of player at Harvard, but rather I questioned what about his previous results make you think he's going to come in and be a force in the league. Nothing you've presented has done much to convince me.
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BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 09:41 PM - Post#34462
In response to SFlaQuaker
Intra-Ivy league smack talk on the Bucknell board in a thread originally about an unconscionably early 2008 bracketology post by St. Joseph's University's Joe Lunardi. You've just got to love the way these conversations can spin off into a weird tangent.
To try and draw things back at least a little bit - would our Palestra based friends want to see a new home & home contract between Penn & Bucknell started? Not sure when the last year was that the Bison played Penn in basketball but being in Philly I'd enjoy seeing that series resume - especially if the Yale contract has expired.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-10-07 09:52 PM - Post#34463
In response to BUPilot
We actually played just 2 years ago, and I for one would love to see a series resume.
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BUPilot
Masters Student
Posts: 641
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 02:41 AM - Post#34464
In response to SFlaQuaker
I knew it hadn't been that many years since the last time Bucknell played the Quakers in basketball. Quite honestly, I was too lazy to go looking through old schedules to get the answer since to me the real question was whether there's an interest in resuming it.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 11:22 AM - Post#34465
In response to BUPilot
Have to say I agree with the Ivies who have expressed the idea that Amaker has not done a whole lot to warrant the conclusion that Harvard is a coming Ivy power. On the other hand, one could draw a comparison to RW at HC--BCS coach without a whole lot of success makes the transition to an academically oriented conference and finds success. Unlike Willard though, I am not sure Amaker "gets it." While he played at a fine academic institution, I have never been convinced that the Dukes and Stanfords of the world subjected their student athletes to the same academic standards that the rest of their student body must adhere to. (Duke's hoops grad rate is not so stellar). Just a long convoluted way of saying Amaker has yet to prove he can recruit real STUDENT athletes, which he will need to do to overtake Penn.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 12:01 PM - Post#34466
In response to bison63
Also, at least RW still had scholarships. Amaker won't. That's a BIG recruiting difference. Not to mention that Duke and Stanford basically throw their admissions standards out the window for athletes, and the Ivies (Patriot League as well) do not.
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BuckWild
newbie
Posts: 22
Reg: 03-21-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 12:33 PM - Post#34467
In response to SFlaQuaker
I wouldn't say that Stanford totally throws their standards our the window. I went to high school with a guy who got a full ride to Stanford for hoops. He started for the squad a couple of years. He wouldn't have gotten in without hoops, however he was fairly intelligent and did well in high school. He would have gone to a decent school without hoops. Makes me think that Stanford doesn't completely throw away academics. They also have a 92% grad rate for hoops players. I think ACC squads are the worst when it comes to disparity between its basketball players and its regular students.
Wake Forest 44% grad rate
Duke 58%
Georgia Tech 19% (all stats from 2005 report by UCF)
I think the Amaker could go either way. One would think that by taking the job he may have the right mindset going in. I'm sure he could have taken a job that paid more money and focused less on academics.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 02:49 PM - Post#34468
In response to SFlaQuaker
Quote:
Also, at least RW still had scholarships. Amaker won't. That's a BIG recruiting difference. Not to mention that Duke and Stanford basically throw their admissions standards out the window for athletes, and the Ivies (Patriot League as well) do not.
Although Amaker will not have scholarships, all Harvard students whose parents make less than $60,000 now get a free ride, and those whose parents make up to $80,000 get significant aid. Thus Amaker effectively has scholarships when he goes after any player from a low-income or lower middle-class area.
True, the Ivys do not throw their standards completely out the window, but they definitely will compromise a lot for a good athlete. I know an athlete who got into Yale with an SAT below 1100 when the average was about 1500. Also, I don't know if any of it is true but I have heard several Ivy graduates complaining long and loud about the academics of some of Cornell's recent hoop recruits.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 03:40 PM - Post#34469
In response to Bison137
This brings up the other issue though. In general, the admissible athletes don't fall into this lowest income bracket.
As for the Stanford issue, they aren't as bad as the ACC. However, the fact that an intelligent guy got in doesn't prove that they throw academics out the window. It simply shows that there are kids out there with the athletic ability and respectable intelligence.
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BuckWild
newbie
Posts: 22
Reg: 03-21-06
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 06:38 PM - Post#34470
In response to SFlaQuaker
I was using the guy as anecdotal evidence, but their graduation rate as more of a factor in the type of athlete they get.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2008 Bracketology
04-11-07 07:17 PM - Post#34471
In response to BUPilot
I for one would certainly love to see the series between Bucknell and Penn start up again. The past few years I always found myself rooting for Bucknell in the tourney as a Pennsylvania-based school with a decent academic standard... And rooting for Bucknell in a Hooters full of Arkansans in Dallas last year was extremely entertaining.
Quote:
I knew it hadn't been that many years since the last time Bucknell played the Quakers in basketball. Quite honestly, I was too lazy to go looking through old schedules to get the answer since to me the real question was whether there's an interest in resuming it.
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