Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:43 PM - Post#3303
In response to
Actually, that is exactly what he did, twice, and what you and other non-Princeton fans have done. I won't speculate regarding your motives, but you are saying the timing of our comments suggests the Dartmouth loss is what is motivating us to criticise Joe.
But if you reread all the Princeton fan postings, what you see is a consistent concern with Joe's yelling at the players, not the outcome or recent outcomes.
There are bigger issues here than the current Ivy race.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:47 PM - Post#3304
In response to Rob
I didn't really see it at all until last weekend and the Brown loss. Also, there's a very big difference between criticizing Dunphy's coaching or the play of certain guys and alleging abuse.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:49 PM - Post#3305
In response to Rob
Ok, please point out instances after victories where these reservations were expressed. Multiple posters would help. Bottom line of course is that you're saying you know better than your coach, offense, defense, attitude, whateva.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 10:41 PM - Post#3306
In response to TigerDave
I, for one, sign my name. I believe that Scott and Scott alone has destroyed this team's confidence. The constant harranging and negative inputs have run their course. Example, at the end of the Yale game, Owings fouled a 3 point shooter. This was his 5th foul. You could hear Scott yelling at Owings from the top of the arena for almost the full minute. Bobby Knight would have blushed. Ask any of the players about their reaction to Scott. He should go and go soon.
Bob Medina PU62
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 10:56 PM - Post#3307
In response to bobmed
Bob,
What is the basis of your assertion that he players want to see Joe go? Have you talked players? Isn't it possible that they have not been asked to perform to the level of their abilities in the past and aren't used to being held as accountable? Isn't it possible that they are not as mentally tough as they need to be to succeed at a higher level? Are we at the point where two losses are too much to suffer to actually improve? Are we in such a political correct period that you can't criticize anyone anymore?
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:31 AM - Post#3308
In response to
Well, Bob, I was sitting quite near the bench and I heard Scott yell at Owings after that foul. However, I didn't think it was the Bobby Knight tirade that you claim. Frankly, it didn't seem that big a deal (and it was a dumb foul).
You're entitled to your opinion. I just don't buy that Joe is the monster you claim he is. Further, I don't think spreading these kind of things around the internet is going to help the program. If he is what you say, let the AD and the PU administration deal with it.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:44 AM - Post#3309
In response to
let's see - to the first question - yes, I have talked to the player's parents. Most of the rest are NO. And the last is I do not feel that is political uncorrect to say that Scott is not the proper coach.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:45 AM - Post#3310
In response to TigerDave
I hope they do just that
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TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:57 AM - Post#3311
In response to bobmed
Another loss -- this time to Harvard. This takes a lot of the gloss away from Tuesday night's game.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 01:27 AM - Post#3312
In response to bobmed
Have you actually talked to the players? Which parents have you talked to? Starters or players who aren't getting the time they want? What specifically have they said? When did they start saying these things?
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 01:37 PM - Post#3313
In response to
In the end, I don't see the wisdom in going down this road of rumors, allegations, recriminations, and the like. No matter who Bob or puck or whomever say they've talked to, it is impossible to know whether what is said is true and/or whether it represents the point of view of everyone on the team.
Remember, there were players who didn't like Bill Carmody & JTIII and ended up leaving the team. Transitions can be difficult and personalities sometimes clash. I don't begrudge people the right to criticize a coach. But there is a difference between criticism and trying to smear his reputation and destroy his career.
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-07-05 09:14 AM - Post#3314
In response to TigerDave
TigerDave, I think you're right. I'm not comfortable now, having posted hearsay. I'm not in the locker room, I don't know what the reality is off-court. Those people close to the situation know what's going on, and if Scott has exceeded himself, know what to do. Thank you for reminding me about Conrad Wysocki's dilemma and that, true, sometimes personallities clash. Things can appear one way...but, not otherwise, be the case. This is not a proper forum and anybody can say what they want...that's a danger. Out here we can't know all the facts; what's really going on. The team, and Scott, deserve the benefit of doubt. We should criticise...but be oh so careful on where we go. I seem to remember a play by Lillian Hellman that talks, in a way, to this. I am guilty of crossing the line...and I want to step back. I read Sunday's postings and it gives me pause.
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Anonymous
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ummm...
02-07-05 02:08 PM - Post#3315
In response to puck
who said anything about Konrad Wysocki?
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Anonymous
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Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 08:29 PM - Post#3316
In response to
This season has been disappointing but I'm not ready to throw Joe Scott under the bus. Let us recall at this point last year, people were bemoaning the Un-Princeton like way the Tigers played under JTIII and saying that Air Force ran the most classic Princeton system in the country. As for Joe Scott screaming at his players - A coach that screams and wins is a "motivator" - a coach that screams and loses is considered a jerk. I don't think Joe is the second coming of Armond Hill, and let's not forget JTIII didn't "abuse" his players verbally, but he was beset with lots of rumors of unhappy players and defections. Martin, Logan, Wysocki, Venable and Persia all left, tried to leave or were rumored to have wanted to leave. So it is not like PU was a bunch of happy campers under JTIII.
Yet he won, so his lack of orthodoxy to the system and the unhappy players were excused. While I like JTIII and the way he coaches - making adjustments and playing the matchups - historically that has not been the Princeton way - PU teams have usually focused more on doing what Princeton does well. I got the feeling that JTIII using the advantage of superior athleticism that he had within the league made Princeton better in the league but worse outside of it. I never felt any of his teams could make noise in the postseason. So, in what may be a big time rationalization, I think what Scott is trying to do may work out better in the long run.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 09:23 PM - Post#3317
In response to
I'm sure you guys don't need/want more Penn guys piling on with comments, but . . .. What I don't understand about what seems to be going on with Scott and Princeton is that getting better in the long run doesn't necessarily need to preclude taking advantage of the team that is there and won last year. Penn fans harp on whether or not Dunphy adjusts to the strengths of his personnel. Here, Scott already had a pretty good blueprint from last year. Why does developing the kind of team you want preclude trying to win for a year in a less strict system? The comments holding Savage out as the one guy he knows won't quit do kind of give a sense of where Scott's focus seems to be. Is it that damaging to his control or ability to ultimately develop the team he wants to just go ahead and stick more closely to what JTIII did?
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: ummm...
02-07-05 10:18 PM - Post#3318
In response to
Quote:
who said anything about Konrad Wysocki?
That was implied in the continuing "We can't think of any way to defend Scott, so let's suggest that JTIII had comparable problems" line of the apologists.
It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Wysocki had three good years as a contributor off the bench behind Walton/Logan, Martin (though Konrad played more minutes), and Wallace. As with most players, he wanted to be a starter and may have felt he was unappreciated. He started at the beginning of his senior year, had a few good offensive games, but did not meet JTIII's expectations defending or rebounding. Logan came back from injury about the time Wysocki got some illness and missed a few games. Logan took his starting spot while he was out, but it probably would have happened anyway. After exam break, Wysocki was back and healthy, but in early league play, he dropped behind Schaen, again because JTIII wanted defense and rebounding. Konrad quit the team about a year ago after JTIII did not play him at all at Yale. It was too bad that his career ended that way, but those things happen.
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Anonymous
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 10:36 PM - Post#3319
In response to SomeGuy
Quote:
Why does developing the kind of team you want preclude trying to win for a year in a less strict system? The comments holding Savage out as the one guy he knows won't quit do kind of give a sense of where Scott's focus seems to be. Is it that damaging to his control or ability to ultimately develop the team he wants to just go ahead and stick more closely to what JTIII did?
Perhaps that is easier said than done. Joe Scott has been successful doing it his way - and I suppose he felt he could be successful doing it his way with these guys. And I suppose you could say he could have reasonably thought it was working ok during the pre-league schedule. No one really felt PU underperformed significantly in the non-conference games, and certainly not to the extent that would have suggested this collapse.
Even now, if your Scott what do you do? With the league basically out of hand, do you post up Venable, crash the boards, run and gun a bit? Or do you try to develop the younger players in the style you expect to be playing for the next few years.
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Anonymous
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 11:56 PM - Post#3320
In response to
I tend to agree with you. I think scott is looking further down the road about the kind of team & players he wants long term. I think he wouuld have loved to come back, win the Ivy League, get to the Dance and so forth during the transition but I think he has higher aspirations for the team and is going to do it his way with his kind of players.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 12:01 AM - Post#3321
In response to
Actually, the point was that coaching transitions sometimes create problems with players beyond even the normal ones. The problem with "defections" (think of Baah, Gloger, Krug, Martin, McLaughlin, Wysocki, almost Logan, etc.) at Princeton over a number of years has been well-documented and widely debated. This is not the imagination of so-called Scott "apologists."
Again, go ahead and criticize Scott all you want. He deserves some. As I said previously, I think he has botched this transition and made a number of tactical mistakes. He also has probably been too critical of his players at times, especially in public. But I don't think serious allegations of unprofessional or unethical behavior (i.e. abuse of players) are either warranted or justifiable. Those who think they have information that does warrant such allegations should do the responsible thing and not air them on the internet but bring them forward to the proper authorities.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 10:20 AM - Post#3322
In response to TigerDave
TigerDave, Gary Walters has been watching the same home games I have, two sections over, and he presumably hears or reads what Scott says to the press. So what would you have me forward to him?
And what is "irresponsible" about commenting on what thousands have also seen? I am not discussing rumor or inuendo, just what is in plain sight.
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